[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard;269604 said:

Without doubt. when their style was unknown no one stood a chance, not even Japanese Jiujitsu, which wouldnt dare teach a man to lay down and take his oponent to the floor with him. Martial Arts trainers the world over watched those early fights in horror, before deciding "I think we better learn some of that rolling around on the floor choking people and breaking arms stuff."

Modern Mma was born

You forget about Masahiko Kimura back in the '50s?

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I stand corrected. Is that Judo?

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard;269629 said:

I stand corrected. Is that Judo?

You ever hear the term "Kimura" during a fight? The picture above is Masahiko Kimura using the armlock he basically invented during the fight on Helio Gracie during a bout in the '50s. Gracie's elbow was broken and before he could continue the fight, his older brother threw in the towel.

Gracie was actually choked unconscious before the actual end, but came to once the hold was released and fought on. Reegoddamndiculous.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Sounds like a REAL fight. Did Helio or big bro ever dare get back on the mat with this dude?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

There's a whole video series of thee Gracies traveling the world, fighting masters from other styles. From what I've seen, they all ended the same. Is that Kimura fight on youtube? I'd like to see that.

[amphibian]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;269715 said:

There's a whole video series of thee Gracies traveling the world, fighting masters from other styles. From what I've seen, they all ended the same. Is that Kimura fight on youtube? I'd like to see that.

This is the closest I can find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU&feature=related

It's pretty obvious that both guys are pretty good at what they're doing, but also plain that Kimura is bigger, faster and stronger than Gracie. Heck, if that 1940s Kimura was transported to the present day, got a couple years of BJJ and striking training in, he'd probably be a top five at 185 or 205 now. He'd be like a Japanese Rampage. Jeebus.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I did some wiki work, and damn. That guy is huge. I knew there was a guy named Kimura, but didn't know anything about him. Sounds like a bad, bad man.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

just watched a few things on youtube. He slung Gracie around something rotten. I Dont think the weight advantage should be taken into account though - Doesnt Bjj "take people under water," taking weight out of the equation?

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The use of leverage and momentum does help overcome a weight advantage (See Gracie versus Don Fry) but in all reality you're better off strong. From what wiki said though, that fight was a judo fight, NOT judo versus BJJ.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Ah, so no punching then.

I see what you mean about the strength thing. A six foot eight, 300 pound BJJ blackbelt would be harder to beat than a 5" 4' one.

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard;269758 said:

just watched a few things on youtube. He slung Gracie around something rotten. I Dont think the weight advantage should be taken into account though - Doesnt Bjj "take people under water," taking weight out of the equation?

Yes and no.

If a 150 pound BJJ blue belt gets a belligerent 200 pound frat boy down, he's probably going to get a lock and could seriously mess the other guy up. Helio Gracie, BJJ master and about 160 pounds of pure fight, went up against a 190 pound, multiple Japanese Open Weight Champion judoka and got his arm broken.

BJJ training is certainly a good thing to have, but size, strength, speed, balance and the semi-instinctual knowledge of how to distribute your weight matter too.

Raymond Luxury Yacht;269759 said:

The use of leverage and momentum does help overcome a weight advantage (See Gracie versus Don Fry) but in all reality you're better off strong. From what wiki said though, that fight was a judo fight, NOT judo versus BJJ.

BJJ matches start standing up too. You could see Gracie trying to put him in full or half guard a bunch of times, but was out-muscled and on the defensive at pretty much every point.

[paladin]

BJJ(and any grappling) is very exhausting. The bigger you are, the harder your body has to work. So if Shaq was a bjj stud, he would be tough, but someone a lot lighter could beat him by keeping him active. It's the same strategy Couture uses at heavyweight since he is a small heavyweight. Grapple grapple grapple grapple until the guy is gassed or frustrated and then strike to win the round or the fight. Henderson tried it on Rampage, but he wasn't nearly as active as he needed to be.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Fedor has broken with M-1 and will soon be a free agent! Dana White says he still wants to sign him. we might get Randy/Fedor after all!

[paladin]

Whoa shit.

[acesn8s]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;270543 said:

Fedor has broken with M-1 and will soon be a free agent! Dana White says he still wants to sign him. we might get Randy/Fedor after all!

I haven't been keeping up with everything, but isn't randy currently on the outs with the UFC?

We'll probably see Big Nog/Fedor III :cool:

[paladin]

ufc wants him(at least outwardly) but he doesnt want ufc

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

acesn8s;270653 said:

I haven't been keeping up with everything, but isn't randy currently on the outs with the UFC?

We'll probably see Big Nog/Fedor III :cool:

Randy is on the outs with UFC, mainly because they couldn't sign Fedor, and ranndy is pissed Dana White won't llet him fight Fedor outside of the UFC. Although strangely enough, he is also mad about how much they were willing to pay Fedor, which was the only way to sign him. Strange.

[acesn8s]

Shamrock vs. Shamrock

http://www.bloodbrothersppv.com/

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

How can Ken Shamrock still get work? He is 1-7 in his last 8 fights. He's going to get killed.

[Yasnian]

^he has a nice big name.
My favorite MMA sites are BloodyElbow.com, Fightlinker.com- which i guess is fairly well known now for the Luke Cummo thing. Also MMAJunkie is good and Sherdog is good if your just bored.