[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 16 June 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

polishgenius, on 16 June 2017 - 04:06 AM, said:

amphibian, on 16 June 2017 - 02:28 AM, said:

The age of truly extraordinary small boxers is perhaps gone. The days of Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler, and so many more are over. The stuff they knew and their coaches knew never got handed down to people because other sports less brutal took over in the seventies and eighties.

Have you seen Vasyl Lomachenko?


Also in September there's going to be a card featuring Roman Gonzalez' rematch with the guy who beat him, Naoya Inoue, and quite possibly Juan Francisco Estrada vs Carlos Cuadras. If that comes together that'll be card of the year by miles (and Gonzalez, at least, is definitely an extraordinary boxer).

I think the thing to remember is that boxing has only lost cachet in America. So while all that heritage and knowledge is a loss, other lineages are going to rise.

Naoya will win again.

I've seen Lomachencko. He's good, but it's really something to go back and watch boxers of the 1970s and 1980s. They're just flat out smarter and needed more skills to be competitive back then.

The rise of UK heavyweights has been terrific, but they're not terrifically skilled (yet).

British boxing was more interesting a few centuries ago. In part because it was more like MMA: takedowns were important techniques, specifically landing hard on top of your opponent. And then there was Jewish-Portuguese immigrant Daniel Mendoza: 'He developed an entirely new style of boxing, incorporating defensive strategies, such as what he called "side-stepping", moving around, ducking, blocking, and, all in all, avoiding punches. At the time, this was revolutionary, and Mendoza was able to overcome much heavier opponents as a result of this new style. Though he stood only 5 feet 7 inches (170 cm) and weighed only 160 pounds (73 kg), Mendoza was England's sixteenth Heavyweight Champion from 1792 to 1795, and is the first middleweight to ever win the Heavyweight Championship of the World. In 1789 he opened his own boxing academy and published the book The Art of Boxing[3] on modern "scientific" style boxing which every subsequent boxer learned from.' Mendoza articulated out how to avoid the clinch and being slammed to the ground by much larger men. I would much rather watch him than Mayweather....

Grappling was eventually Mendoza's downfall, when "Gentleman" John Jackson pulled his hair: " seizing Mendoza by his long hair and holding him with one hand while he pounded his head with the other. [...] Since this date boxers have worn their hair short."

https://en.wikipedia.../Daniel_Mendoza

"After this Jackson created a boxing academy for gentlemen at 13 Bond Street, London. Jackson's Saloon was popular with the nobility and gentry. Lord Byron relates in his diary that he regularly received instruction in boxing from Jackson."

https://en.wikipedia..._Jackson_(boxer)

Quote

I hope there's more and more coming, especially since the UK doesn't really have a "big person" sports scene beyond rugby.

Yeah, the lure of football (and to a lesser extent basketball) has probably been a major drain on heavyweights in the US (and superheavyweights maybe even moreso---there are some incredibly athletic superheavyweights in the NFL who might be able to make the superheavyweight division worthwhile). And the British Commonwealth countries have rugby. But what about the rest of the world? I don't think basketball's really *that* popular... and being gigantic isn't as huge an advantage in non-USo.An football. So where have all the world (super)heavyweights gone? Powerlifting, maybe?

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 16 June 2017 - 08:52 PM

[amphibian]

If you want to read more about Daniel Mendoza, a friend of mine wrote this: https://www.bloodyel...nce-of-bruising

Also, if you haven't, read the Pierce Egan "Boxiana" type stuff. They're wiiiiild to read these days. Things really were different back then. I think the big guys worldwide who like to fight tend to go into wrestling, rugby, and yeah, weightlifting. The Pacific Islanders really should have a ton of high level fighters, but they don't have that many currently beyond Mark Hunt and a couple other kickboxers. Those guys are metal.

[Binder of Demons]

Yet another example of why showboating is not good for you in combat sports. Yeah, bring it on..... Ouch

Since the preview doesn't show you what it is, it's the end of the Holm-Coreia fight. only about 20 secs long

This post has been edited by Binder of Demons: 19 June 2017 - 10:55 PM

[amphibian]

Great article on what Mayweather is as a boxer and his place in history (written before the Pacquiao fight and still current): http://deadspin.com/...eadspin_twitter

[Binder of Demons]

The Mayweather-MacGregor fight will be on PPV. Only way to make all that dough.

Thank God it's only 2 months away, cos the amount of coverage it's getting is already tedious, since most of the articles are just clickbait.

Hopefully there'll be some good UFC cards between now and then. UFC 213 looks tasty, with Nunes-Shevchenko headlining, and Romero-Whittaker as co-main.

I'll be curious to see how the Bellator card goes at Madison Square Garden this weekend though, since it is the first real MMA event to rival a UFC card in ages.

[Malankazooie]

The Bellator event this Saturday is interesting, if for nothing else some recognizable names past (and way past) their primes.

Sonnen v Axe Murderer
Fedor v Matt Mitrione
Phil Davis v Ryan Vader.

I'll probably DVR it and speed through to the good parts.

I'm glad to see Bellator stepping it up, because the UFC has lost a lot of my respect based on things that they've done the past couple of years. So it would be good to see some competition push them.

[polishgenius]

amphibian, on 20 June 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Great article on what Mayweather is as a boxer and his place in history (written before the Pacquiao fight and still current): http://deadspin.com/...eadspin_twitter

It's a great article (I read it when it came out and it certainly educated me on a lot of things, and prodded me to learn a bit more about the lineage of the Murderers Row). And certainly that breed of boxer and boxing is in danger of dying out, and that should be lamented while the code itself should be celebrated.

Re-reading it now that I know a bit more about boxing in general, though, it does strike me that it falls into some of Farrel's typical pitfalls, to whit getting a bit lost in his own narrative and allowing his biases about certain things and certain fighters to drive that narrative. In this case, couple of things:

(1) The need to frame Floyd as the last 'Black Code' fighter for the purposes of the article means he has to ignore the existence of Andre Ward entirely. Like, doesn't even mention him. This seems like a mistake. Okay, fair enough, at the time it was written Ward was in the legal doldrums, but looking at it in the context of now ignoring his existence was a massive oversight.
(2) He's in love with the idea of the old days of boxing and while points that some things have been lost are fair, he does seem not even able to entertain the notion that a modern fighter might be as good as fighters then. Which does rather impact on a historical perspective piece
(3) Likewise, although this is a minor issue in the piece, the narrative that this type of boxing is dying means he can't acknowledge the Cuban school, a style which on the rare occasions one of its adherents is able to turn pro both runs on very similar principles and runs into very similar marketing/finding-opponent problems (Rigondeaux ) Although many of its best students never do go pro, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and is I think increasingly admired and studied if not loved among non-Cuban pros, so similar principles aren't just vanishing.
(4) I don't think it even crossed his mind to wonder if Floyd's megastar status might result in more fighters trying to adopt those principles. It won't be the same direct lineage, and certainly there'll be the embarrassing spectacle of fighters trying it who aren't built for it from the ground up (Adrien Broner, for example), but I'd be majorly surprised if its principles don't continue to spread, even beyond the original 'unheralded black American fighters' group. Like, European fighters are already starting to be more likely to have learned things from Floyd.



In the other direction though, I do find it interesting that Floyd as a promoter and apparent fanboy seems to pick, as his candidates for The Future of Boxing, guys who don't fit into that lineage or come off as his successors at all. Most notably, Gervonta Davis and Errol Spence.



ps: if you've never read it, here's an article by Conor Reubusch which analyses some modern trends in boxing using that article as a basis to counter off.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 21 June 2017 - 10:28 PM

[amphibian]

I hadn't read that Connor article. He's a friend (on Twitter) and I've roasted him many times for his abysmal live scoring of nearly every fight. However, he does know his stuff too.

I'll read it when I get back from grocery shopping. Interestingly enough, training more and more combat sports (will be 9 years in September) has me falling a bit harder for the ones who "do things right" rather than the ones who win. I guess I'm in some sorta valley of perception and I'll start climbing upwards once more when I figure things out on deeper and deeper levels.

[amphibian]

I think Connor also doesn't believe either of the Ali/Liston fights were fixed (they both were).

I lean more towards Farrell than I do Connor in terms of how boxing is now. Yes, fighters fight less and are much more hyperspecialized to opponents when they do fight, but the playing to the crowd + the judges is something that all combat sports people have to learn and try to do well. It's harder than just fighting for most people who aren't Chuck Liddell (perhaps the most inexplicable draw MMA has ever seen for his dud personality and fouling in-cage).

[polishgenius]

Yeah, Connor's live scoring can be shocking. But I like the way he analyses and looks at combat sport. I'm not a for-realsie coz I'm strictly armchair fanning, but I see a lot of truth in things he picks up on, even if I don't always agree with his conclusions.
Plus, we have similar tastes in fighters to fanboy out over so we clearly see things similarly to a certain extent...


I think Farrell is someone who knows an absurd amount about boxing but like I say does sometimes get in his own way a touch. Like with his knowledge of match-fixing and other dirty shit- we all know that always and even now it goes on more than we want to pretend but he occasionally brings it up when he doesn't really need to for what he's saying: like in that Floyd article, the small section at the end about how Manny might win if they do x and y to fix the judging is a complete non-sequiteur.

But mostly it's his biases that grate on me. Like, he did an article about Anthony Joshua recently and while much of what he says is true, his description of Tyson Fury as a 'star building free ride' is a completely baseless dismissal of a boxer he apparently just doesn't like as much as Joshua. I mean, there's no guarantee that Fury will ever fight a serious fight again but if he does, he's a big-time threat to Joshua's 0.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Wow:

"In the build-up to the blockbuster showdown between boxing superstar Floyd Mayweather Jr. and reigning Ultimate Fighting Championship lightweight titleholder Conor McGregor on Aug. 26, the idea that others in boxing would want to capitalize on the added publicity should come as no surprise. That brings us to the tragedy involving former UFC heavyweight Tim Hague, who returned to boxing against Adam Braidwood on June 16 in Edmonton, Alberta.


Braidwood won by knockout. Two days later, Hague was dead at the age of 34, having succumbed to traumatic head injuries suffered in the bout. This is an issue with which we are all too familiar in boxing.


Some blame the officiating, which was subpar to be certain. Others blame the existence of a standing eight count, a rule non-existent in MMA, where fights are subjected to quicker stoppages. [...] The deaths of Leal and Hague are similar for one major reason: The blows that seemed to affect them most were actually illegal punches. These are a scourge in boxing. The irony here is that the poor technique cannot be blamed on the mixed martial artist but on the boxer. They are commonly known as “rabbit punches” or blows that land to the back of the head. In Leal’s fight, the shot that sent him down bounced off the base of his skull; in Hague’s fight, it happened repeatedly."


http://www.sherdog.c...uI2GOpaD3RZB.99

Personally, I wish blows to the back of the head were legal in MMA. But boxers seem to get away with them most of the time.

[Binder of Demons]

I know this makes me a bad person, but I have to say I laughed at hearing the result of the Aaron Pico - Zach Freeman bout on the Bellator card on saturday night. All of the talk in the lead up to the card was how this guy is a ono of kind prospect, could end up being the best ever, blah blah blah, and he hadn't even made his pro-debut yet. That, combined with his shit talking of some other fighters had left me irritated by Pico. I know it is the done thing for promoters to go a bit over the top about prospects, but usually they'll have shown you some form in the actual sport before they lose the run of themselves in terms of hype (Rousey is a good example, as they did massively over hype her, but she had been frighteningly efficient until her first defeat).

The build up had reminded me in some ways of the hype that Henry Cejudo had been getting when he first switched over, as an olympic wrestler who had actually boxed as a youth. But at least it took him to be fighting a pound for pound great in Demetrious Johnson to look a bit foolish.


On a different tack, (UFC Fight Night 112) what the f*ck has happened to Johnny Hendricks?? Pushed up to fight at middleweight because of his problems in missing weight at 170llbs, he goes and misses weight again!! How the mighty have fallen. Overall the card is pretty weak. The only result i'm really rooting for, is to have Chiesa KO Kevin Lee.

[Malankazooie]

I only watched the Bellator under card (I was unaware the main card fights were on Pay Per View). Anyway, it was pretty boring. The one fight that sorta stands out to me is the McGregor wannabe submitting Lyoto Machida's brother. It was pretty bad. I did see, however, that Bellator has brought on Mike Goldberg. Good for him.

[Malankazooie]

Any of you guys watch the Pacquiao v. Horn fight? I missed it but I've seen a lot of strong reactions about it jumping off all around social media.

p.s. Is there a boxing thread? Maybe boxing discussion should be under its own thread?

[Binder of Demons]

That Michael Johnson - Justin Gaethje fight was insane. As i heard it described afterwards, you could nominate it for fight of the year already, and either of the 2 rounds could be round of the year. Sure adds some spice to the lightweight division.

Was looking forward to the main card tonight as well, and only just spotted that Amanda Nunes has pulled out of her title defence against Valentina Shevchenko. Such a shame, cos that could have been amazing. Really wanted to see Shevchenko drag Nunes into the 4th or 5th round and see if she could take it. Curious what they'll do with the fight now, because, the obvious thing is to just say push it back to UFC 214, but that already has 3 title fights on it. So will it have to be pushed back to 215? That really fucks the timetable for the subsequent fights in the women divisions too.

Now it's a real debate if i'll stay up to watch the card tonight (since we're talking 5am probably), but damn i really want to see that Romero - Whitaker as close to live as possible.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Binder of Demons, on 08 July 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

That Michael Johnson - Justin Gaethje fight was insane. As i heard it described afterwards, you could nominate it for fight of the year already, and either of the 2 rounds could be round of the year. Sure adds some spice to the lightweight division.

Was looking forward to the main card tonight as well, and only just spotted that Amanda Nunes has pulled out of her title defence against Valentina Shevchenko. Such a shame, cos that could have been amazing. Really wanted to see Shevchenko drag Nunes into the 4th or 5th round and see if she could take it. Curious what they'll do with the fight now, because, the obvious thing is to just say push it back to UFC 214, but that already has 3 title fights on it. So will it have to be pushed back to 215? That really fucks the timetable for the subsequent fights in the women divisions too.

Now it's a real debate if i'll stay up to watch the card tonight (since we're talking 5am probably), but damn i really want to see that Romero - Whitaker as close to live as possible.

Unless you're watching at a party or a bar devoted to showing it, what's the point of watching it live? Twitter and live forum commentary / chat rooms as it's happening? Or just the "aura" of "this is what's happening now" ("and the moment when the Tweet sings very close / to the music of the Fenian cycle")?

These days I almost always watch the morning after. Takes a little discipline to avoid possible spoilers but it's not too hard and I can skip to what I want to see, replay in slow motion, etc. Though going to a bar or party where it's being shown with drinks and cheering and the excitement of the crowd (even if the discussions and commentary are unlikely to be expert or brilliant---though a lot of MMA fans do train to some extent) and so forth can be enjoyable (not to mention less expensive even counting a few drinks).


It's still an unusually good undercard---Overeem vs Werdum, Anthony Pettis vs Miller, Browne vs Oleynik... and Blaydes vs Polish heavyweight could be entertaining (Blaydes actually is from a place called Nowhere, Oklahoma---or at least it's a real place...).

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 09 July 2017 - 12:24 AM

[polishgenius]

Malankazooie, on 02 July 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

p.s. Is there a boxing thread? Maybe boxing discussion should be under its own thread?

It might be worth it to start one given how good a year boxing has had so far in 2017. And September in particular is looking absolutely crazy heavy with good fights, what with several biggies already scheduled even before the World Boxing Super Series tourneys, drawn last night, kick off (the cruiserweight bracket in particular is banging) later in the month.




Johnson-Gaethje was bonkers.

[Malankazooie]

Any of you guys watch that press conference for Mayweather/McGregor ? Boy, what a shit show. Mayweather has got the charisma and IQ equal to a bottle of Ranch dressing. And McGregor was entertaining, but man, does he poor it on thick. At the end of the day though, if you don't see this for what it is (A MONEY GRAB), then you be one ignorant summbee.

And joy of joys, this was the first of four stops to promote this crap. This circus goes to Toronto, New York City and London. Should be a hoot and a holler, a donnybrook, if you will.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 12 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

[Malankazooie]

Full disclosure; I'm not the biggest Bryant Gumbel fan, but how he closed the most recent Real Sports on HBO (regarding Mayweather v McGregor) is pretty much right on the mark.

Quote

"The two combatants have for the past month lowered the bar for civility and eagerly swapped racist, misogynistic and gay slurs in desperate hopes of marketing their pay-per-view event. That they've leaned on hate and ignorance to sell their fight says a lot about them and none of it is good. What's it going to say about those who buy it?"

If you guys watched that circus, side show of a promotion tour, you probably can't argue against his hot take.

[amphibian]

Gumbel is an idiot in regards to how the fight game works.

He's right about the reliance on these things being bad. But that's how the fight game works and that says more about us than it does these two guys who are about to make generational money off a friendly fight.