[Thelomen Toblakai]

"Axe, bound to both Saviour and Betrayer of the Empty Hold. Knuckles and the White Crow circle the Ice Throne like leaves in a whirlpool. Elder of Beast Hold stands at the Portal of the Azath Hold. Gate of the Dragon and Blood-Drinker converge on the Watcher of the Empty Hold" (page 242)

Well I've been wondering about this prophecy and I can't make much of it. I was just wondering if anyone else could make out much of what it meant.

I don't understand the bit about Axe and Saviour and Betrayer.

The White Crow I think is Silchas Ruin but whose Knuckles and is the Ice Hold only mentioned because the Refugium, where the Finnest is, is in that Ice Hold/Realm/Underworld.

Elder of the Beast Hold stands at the Azath Hold? Is that refering to the Wolf Gods? Fener? Someone I've not even considered. Maybe it's discussing Feners rise back to Ascendant state or his death.

And the last bit I don't understand either? Is that again about the Finnest and the Watcher being the Imass who guards it?

So many questions. :confused:

[Illuyankas]

Gate of the Dragon = Clip?

[MUC1]

Knuckles is very clearly the guardian of the underwater azath house. Is it possible that blood-drinker was Sukul Ankhadu, as we first see her drinking someone's blood. As to the meanings of the prophecy, I'm as lost as you

[Mael]

Thelomen Toblakai;199125 said:

"Axe, bound to both Saviour and Betrayer of the Empty Hold. Knuckles and the White Crow circle the Ice Throne like leaves in a whirlpool. Elder of Beast Hold stands at the Portal of the Azath Hold. Gate of the Dragon and Blood-Drinker converge on the Watcher of the Empty Hold" (page 242)

Well I've been wondering about this prophecy and I can't make much of it. I was just wondering if anyone else could make out much of what it meant.

I don't understand the bit about Axe and Saviour and Betrayer.

The White Crow I think is Silchas Ruin but whose Knuckles and is the Ice Hold only mentioned because the Refugium, where the Finnest is, is in that Ice Hold/Realm/Underworld.

Elder of the Beast Hold stands at the Azath Hold? Is that refering to the Wolf Gods? Fener? Someone I've not even considered. Maybe it's discussing Feners rise back to Ascendant state or his death.

And the last bit I don't understand either? Is that again about the Finnest and the Watcher being the Imass who guards it?

So many questions. :confused:

Axe = Eres
Savior = Brys Beddict
Betrayer = ??

Knuckles = the FA below the sea with Killmandaros
White Crow = Silchas Ruin

Elder of Beast hold = ??

Gate of the Dragon = ??
Blood Drinker = ?? (Sukul Ankhadu?)
Watcher = ??

Fill in the blanks

[Illuyankas]

I still think that Ruin could be both the White Crow and Blood Drinker. And thinking about it, Clip being Gate of the Dragon just seems so fitting, with the rings giving access to SD. Not sure of the Watcher, though.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thelomen Toblakai;199125 said:

"Axe, bound to both Saviour and Betrayer of the Empty Hold.

How about Seren Pedac as Axe. Had relationships with both Hull Beddict (Betrayer, went over to the Edur) and Trull Sengar (Saviour, though with little success). Thus, bound to them.

Quote

Knuckles and the White Crow circle the Ice Throne like leaves in a whirlpool.

Knuckles is the FA with Kilmandaros in the underwater Azath. He used that name himself, so not much to argue there. Silchas Ruin seems a natural for White Crow, but I'm sure he's Blood-Drinker. So, Menandore is the other Tiste Liosan who figures prominently (for the white skin link). Not sure though, since Knuckles doesn't appear to be doing anything and only Hedge and the T'lan Imass with him went near the Ice Throne.

Quote

Elder of Beast Hold stands at the Portal of the Azath Hold.

Drawing a blank on this one. Unless it refers to one of the T'lan Imass in the Refugium, perhaps one of the Bonecasters? Best I can do.

Quote

Gate of the Dragon and Blood-Drinker converge on the Watcher of the Empty Hold" (page 242)

I'm with Illuyankas, Clip and Ruin are naturals for this pair. It's been clear Ruin was Blood-Drinker since MT, where he was said to have "drank deepest by far" of the blood of Tiam. The Watcher could then be the lead T'lan Imass in the Refugium, Scabandari's Finnest or even Kettle. Don't think any of them are good fits for Watcher though.

[Illuyankas]

I was also thinking Kettle for the Portal.

[Yasnian]

i figured menandore to be the Watcher since she has been watching the finnest and watching ruin and clip through udi
and ruin, clip and friends are converging on her location
and i dont think that silchas ruin is the white crow. remember when a couple high ranking letherii were always saying they didnt think that this "bandit" white crow was the real on well i think there was some hidden truth to that

[Thelomen Toblakai]

If Knuckles from the prophecy is Knuckles but the thing about that is how is anything he is doing being under the sea affecting the Ice Hold?

[Kurt Montandon]

I don't think this prophecy entirely played out in Reaper's Gale, so the things to do with Knuckles and the Elder of Beast Hold may come up in TTH.

[presumingpete]

personally i saw two possibilities for dragons gate. I thought either wyval was dragons gate especially as he claimed to be mockra, or just stating the blinding the obvious as the gate into starvald damarlahn

[Mulch]

Watcher = Kilava onass

[Abyss]

"Axe, bound to both Saviour and Betrayer of the Empty Hold."

Saviour and Betrayer MAY have been Brys and Hull - but bear in mind Brys wasn't labelled 'saviour' until after he died, so either this didn't run its course in TB, may not yet have, or Axe ref's something not yet clear - my guess would be the Eres, as the Nerek off'd Hull and we have yet to see a link to Brys.

"Knuckles and the White Crow circle the Ice Throne like leaves in a whirlpool."

The Ice Throne may ref the throne Hedge found on the way to the Refugim, but i suspect a more complex link to the jaghut, with Knuckles ( under water/whirlpool, as seen in RG) and Silch yet to meet.

"Elder of Beast Hold stands at the Portal of the Azath Hold."

Pure spec here, but Elder of Beast Hold could be Kilamandros - she's an Elder God, fairly savage and primal, and from what se saw in RG, she's hiding in an Azath House with Knuckles.

"Gate of the Dragon and Blood-Drinker converge on the Watcher of the Empty Hold"

I think this ref's Sheltie, Sukul, and Menan'. Sheltie was the 'gate' Silch had to pass to escape the Azath, and both are draconic. Sukul was drinking all kinds of blood and organs, and Menan' had a long relationship with the Refugim.

- Abyss, notes the thread title is punctuationally offensive.

[Mael]

Axe is definatly the Eres and is actually listed as such in the MT Glossery in my copy.

It is related to the "graveyard" of eres flint axe heads that Bottle finds on 7 Cities at the same time that the Eres'al makes first contact with him. It was noted at the time that the Eres didn't have graveyards of thier own per say but recognized that these places were aspected to death and as such brought the items of the deceased there.

[Sloppyfresh]

"Gate of the Dragon and Blood-Drinker converge on the Watcher of the Empty Hold"

I am assuming the Empty Hold is the Refugium. Does anyone disagree/agree? I think this cuz it only seems to be in/around Letheras (quick, hedge and ruin all enter or exit on the continent... and dont they only pray to the empty hold only on the letheras continent.... ) Could the Refugium be a manifestation of the Gothos ritual + Letheras worshipping the empty hold?

I dont really agree with it being the 3 dragon ladies. I would suggest it being

Ruin - Blood drinker (as said before cuz he drank deepest of tiams blood) - and because he was on a quest to find the finniest
Clip - Gate of Dragon (access to SD... he traveled with Ruin who is definetly blood drinker)

Watcher is a little more ambiguous... as I read it I thought it was either the Alive Imass who had the finniest.. cuz he was watching over the relativly 'empty' refugium... I also thought that it could be Uni's son, but it doest work cuz he was fairly newly born, and didnt appear to be watching anything.

Sloppyfresh!

[Nazaar]

Quote

Bruthen Trana walked slowly t the standing stone, went round to the side with the lone carving. And read thereon the name inscribed:
'"Brys Benedict, Saviour of the Empty Hold." I summon you.'

TPB p.855.

I don't see how there could be another Saviour of the Empty Hold?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Nazaar;199632 said:

TPB p.855.

I don't see how there could be another Saviour of the Empty Hold?

There appeared to two members for every role in MT. Roughly, one Edur and one Letherii for each position. This works well against the background of a war between the two states.

[Abyss]

Nazaar;199632 said:

TPB p.855.

I don't see how there could be another Saviour of the Empty Hold?

Why not? - depending on which prophecy one happens to be reading, and when, there have been at least two Obelisks and Assassins of HHS

And multiple people have held the same positions in various Houses - Dassem was Knight of Death before Baudin was, to say nothing of Fener, Poliel, Kallor....

- Abyss, notes, in case anyone forgot, that a position in a House and a position in a prophecy are not the same thing, altho they can overlap. repeat. repeat. repeat.

[Kichiro]

Betrayer of the Empty Hold = Udinaas ?

Since he refused a position when Feather Witch offered him one.

Watcher of the Empty Hold = Scabandari ? (can't do much else then watch if your not really in possesion of a body)

If the refugim is indeed the empty hold. Have we read something about gates of warrens travelling? Since we've read that some warrens wander. Maybe their gates do too.

[BridgeBurner]

Now, I'm assuming the Empty Hold in Lether is what should have been and became the Death Hold, that rose at the end of MT at the site of the dying Azath House.

Betrayer: Mael, who asked Gothos for a favour to freeze the whole of Lether and deny Death the spirits from moving to it, in MT Prologue. By this action he robbed the Empty Hold of the purpose it should have had.

Saviour: Brys, who gave Silchas Ruin the swords he needed to survive him crawling out of the dying Azath (still the Empty Hold at that time); this is supported by Nazaar's quote.

Now there's only one person related to these two: Tehol.

Ergo, in my opinion, Tehol = Axe. His position as Emperor gives him the ability do some 'cutting'.