[Wampyry]

I believe there are two different topics here: Kallor's one-on-one combat; and Kallor's sorcery.
Kallor had a reputation for being one of the best on individual combat, but so did Whiskeyjack. Even fight with Whiskeyjack getting the edge. He was younger!

Krul went to Jacuruku to destroy Kallor; he went to snap the chains of 12 million slaves. When Kallor retaliated against the three Elder Gods for their curses, he said "I shall break you. Each of you. I swear this upon the bones of seven million 'sacrifices'." Presumably the other 5 million slaves were just murdered or were out of harm's way during the conflagration. In any event, I think it was the sacrifice of seven million slaves to Kallor that gave him the power to curse the three gods. In addition to the massive deaths, the continent of Jacuruku was also destroyed. Dranconus, "All is dead. Incinerated. The heat remains deep beneath the bed of ash. Ash and bone." Who and what is powerful enough for such
destruction? Tellann come to mind. Why would the Tlan Imass bonecasters call down the fires of
Tellann, maybe the throne on burnt bones Kallor was sitting on was the migrating bone cage of the
King of the Tlan - maybe not.

Krul was so upset with the carnage that he ate Jacuruku, throne and all. Incidentally, MOI is the last book that Kallor is listed as an Ascedant in the Glossary. Maybe Krul ate him, too, eventually passing Kallor, the throne and Jacuruku. Should have made him feel better. I keep wanting to say the Kallor is Dessimbelackis, but I wont

[Mentalist]

Kallor can't be dissembelackis, since their empires were contemporary

his power to curse came from the power of blood- the millions of sacrifices in his name gave him the strength

His physical prowess was sustained by the magical candles, and it's safe to assume he was a near-Ascendant when he was cursed. however, he wasn't the best.
Also, Silverfox failed to summon the T'lan Ay, b/c they refused to answer her, since she didn't release them like the T'lan Imass asked her to. CG didn't have mush to do with that.

[Aptorian]

Wampyry;232551 said:

Who and what is powerful enough for such
destruction? Tellann come to mind. Why would the Tlan Imass bonecasters call down the fires of
Tellann, maybe the throne on burnt bones Kallor was sitting on was the migrating bone cage of the
King of the Tlan - maybe not.

It is widely believed here on the board that Kallor used KCCM technology.

In MoI he shows extensive knowledge of the KCCM, his scholars had excavated many ancient traces of the KCCM civilization on Jacaruku. Also we've seen several sightings of ancient machines lying in the ashes of the Imperial Warren. So Kallors scholars dug up some kind of doomsday technology for Kallor to use. Of course the destruction could have been somekind of insanely huge ritual of magic but Kru'll should have felt that.

The enteresting question is if Kallor used these machines once why hasn't he used them since? The obvious answer would be that Kallor didn't posses the knowledge of the machines workings himself and that no one but him survived, his scholars taking the ancient knowledge with them in death.

[Urb]

I was under the impression that Kallor is indeed powerful. Much like an ascendant, but because of the curse, he will never 'pass the bar' so to speak, and can never become an actual god. No matter how many people were to worship him.

A comparison to Kallor could possibly be Gesler. After being punched in the face by Coltaine. We learn that he has nearly ascended, and it is obvious he is in the possession of some power.

[Aptorian]

Rake was certainly worried about Kallor when he left the Andii camp for the last time. Enough to warrant the use of power able to destroy a continent.

I guess we'll never know now that he's using the CGs power.

Actually something just occured to me, I've always put Kallors power when he knocks Korlat out and kills WJ and the marines as being the CGs power. But what if it was actually Kallors own power?

A little bit after he's struck by Tays sunfire and he calls to the CG to protect him. Perhaps the Cg wasn't involved untill then :confused:

[elvet]

Regarding Kallor's power, part of it is alchemical. He uses a special candle's smoke to extend his life. I seem to think that he actually says that technology (KCCM) and alchemy are superior to magic. I'll have to find that quote.

[MTS]

Well sure, the alchemicals do help his vitality and survivability. If he's able to get mauled by magic that would incinerate most and still be standing, I would say they're pretty effective. I think teh bulk of his power, though, comes down to the

Spoiler

Ascendancy theories Paran was talking about in BH

- sheer force of will. Kallor is so determined not to fail that his willpower actually manifests into something quite powerful, and as such he is very tenacious. His determination to beat the Elder God curses on him allows him to do things like

Spoiler

get mauled by a dragon talon

and still be able to say "fuck you".

[Volcan]

I don't renember who excactly said that Whiskeyjack might have been able to kill Kallor but isn't it also possible that the one who said that had absolutely no clue about how powerful kallor really was/is, i'm not sure if that was a well known story in the army or?..

[Obdigore]

Volcan, on Jul 30 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

I don't renember who excactly said that Whiskeyjack might have been able to kill Kallor but isn't it also possible that the one who said that had absolutely no clue about how powerful kallor really was/is, i'm not sure if that was a well known story in the army or?..

It was Dujek who was going over the fight, and saw that WhiskeyJack's leg had broken when he did a full lunge, which meant that WJ had Kallor dead.

Kallor commented earlier in the book that he had never been beaten in a fight, but Brood retorts that he had chosen his enemies wisely and had never crossed weapons with him or rake or a high ranking seguleh.

The simple fact: 'WJ used to spar against Dassem, and it would take Dassem a while to get around his guard'.

Whiskeyjack was a superb swordsman, and had Kallor dead if his leg hadn't broken. This of course does not rule out saving sorecery by the CG or something, but there it is.

As for Korlat sensing his 'power', no she sensed his 'presence', which could be he just has a different flavor from everyone else, being that he is thousands of years old, been cursed by and in return cursed three elder gods, and is kept going by super-candles. I mean, I'm just saying that he isn't your typical human.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 30 July 2009 - 06:58 PM

[Soletaken Peach]

From what I read, I understood that Kallor did unleash some sort of sorcery.

Safe to say we're supposed to be spinning and flailing our legs until Erikson burrows deeper into Kallor's persona, character and abilities. There were plenty of hints along the book that could've made Kallor look impossibly powerful, or impossibly weak. - In the end, either of the two could be a well played act. We've seen that before in the series, we still see it, and until the end we will lol. Quick Ben, anyone? + Kruppe? + etc?

I think it is safe to say that not everything every character says is true, or completely 'correct'. If it was so, then the books would go nowhere. Misunderstandings, and the many different points of views and different opinions of the characters makes the books go forth. Erikson seems to adhere to the idea of his characters shaping the plot, not the plot shaping characters. - Even his writing, not necesarily the character's speech, seems to turn in favour of the character's perspective... which leaves it all strangely vague, but lovely read nontheless. O:

Notice how in Deadhouse Gates, Crokus has a small argument about their destination with Kalam or Fiddle, or both (I forgot the exact details) and challenges Quick Ben's knowledge, calling him 'a cadre mage!' - For the Crippled God to approach Kallor, well, that must mean something. To be responsible for the deaths of thousands too, so I think It's safe to assume Kallor is indeed quite powerful. The book hints the use of a warren, chaotic, when Kallor attacked;

Memories of Ice, on pag. 814-817 paperback., said:

Two marines approached on horseback from the east,riding hard in front of the Malazan line.
Whiskeyjack's two marines. . .
Labouring, coughing froth, the horses galloped up the slope. The two women reined in. 'Commander!' one shouted.
The other added, "We found her!' Then she pointed.
From from the ranks fo the east. . . Silverfox.
The sound of thousands of voices crying out in surprised alarted Korlat- she turned to see the killing field before the K'Chain Che'Malle vanish in a sudden haze of dust, thinning quickly to reveal rank upon rank of T'lan Imass.
Silverfox approached. She seemed to have chosen Artanthos as her destination, her eyes half lidded, her round, heavy face expressionless.
A road from Whiskeyjack's army rose into the morning air.
'Yes. . .' rasped Kallor besides her.
Korlat pulled her gaze from Silverfox, curious enough at Kallor's tone to draw her attention.
In time to see the rough edge blade flashing at her head.
Pain exploded. A moment of confusion, when all was strangely still, then the ground hammered her side. Heat flared down her face, lancing down from her forehead. She blinked, wondered at her own body, which had begun trashing.
Warren-
-Chaotic-
Kallor-
A blurred scene before her eyes, her point of view from the ground.
Skull - broken - dying-
Her vision ceared, every line and edge of what she saw too sharp, sharp like knife blades, slicing her soul to ribbons. Kallor, with a delighted roar, charged towards Silverfox, chain armor flowing like a cloak. Grey veined magic danced on the ground around the warrior.
The rhivi woman stopped, mouth opening, terror filling her eyes.
She screaming something-
--something--
'T'lan Ay. Defend me!'
Yet she remained alone--
Kallor closed, sword gripped in both gauntleted hands, raising the weapon high.

Then Whiskeyjack stood in his path, longsword lashing up to clang against Kallor's weapon. A sudden, fierce exchange, sparks flashing. Kallor leapt back, bellowing his frustruation, and his heel caught--
Whiskeyjack saw his moment. Sword thrusting out, a duellist's lunge, fully extending, weight pounding down on the lead leg--
Which buckled.
She saw the sliver of bone rip up through the man's leather clad thigh.
Saw the pain on her lover's face, the sudden recognition--
AS Kallor's huge sword punched into his chest. Slid between ribs.
Riped through heart and lungs in a diagonal,inward-slicing thrust.
Whiskeyjack died on that blade - life droppig back from the eyes that met Korlat's back, away, then gone.
Kallor dragged his weaon free.
Her reeled suddenly, impaled by two crossbow quarrels. Chaotic magic snaked up around the offending missiles, disintegrating them.
Blood spurted. unmindful, Kallor readied his sword once more, as the two marines closed in tandem.
The women were superb, fighting as one.
But the man they fought--
A mortal scream - the marine on the right stumbled in a welter of blood, reaching down to gather uncoiling, tumbling intestines, then sinking earthward. Her helmed head left her shoulders before her knees touched ground.
The other woman rushed Kallor, sword thrusting high for the warrior's face.
A side-step, a downward chop, severing the arm--
But the marine had already surrendered it, and her left hand, gripping a pig-sticker, was unimpeded as it punched through the chainlinks coveringKallor's stomach.
The edge of Kallor's sword carved up through the marine' throat.
She spun in a red spray, toppled.
Gasping, the ancient warrior reeled back, yellow-streaked blood spurting from the hole in his stomach. 'Chained one!' he screamed. 'Heal me!'
Hot- a warren-
--not chaotic - where?
A wave of knotted gold hammered into Kallor, swalloed him in frenzied fire. He shrieked, thrown off his feet, battered as the magic pursued, ripping into him, blood threading the air as he sprawled to the ground.
A second wave rolled towards the man, coruscating with sunfire--
The warren that opened around Kallor was a miasmic stain, a sickly tear - that swept around him-
- to vanish, taking Kallor with it.
The golden sorcery flickered, dissipated.
No- such control. Who ?
Korlat's body no longer spasmed. It was now numb and cool, strangely remote. Blood was filling one eye. She had to keep blinking to clear it. She was lying on the ground, she finally realized. Kallor had struck her.
Someone knelt by her side, a soft, warm hand settling on her cheek.
Korlat struggled to focus
'It's me, Silverfox. Help is coming-'
The Tiste Andii tried to lift a hand, to manage some kind of gesture towards Whiskeyjack, but the desire remained within her mind, racing in circles, and she knew by the faint feel of damp grassed under her palm that her hand did not heed her call.
'Korlat! Look at me. Please. Brood is coming - and I see a black dragon approaching from the west - Orfantal? The warlord possesses High Denul, Korlat. You must hold on-'
A shadow over her face. Silverfox glancing up, features twisting into something bitter. 'Tell me,' she said to the newcomer, 'the sorcery that acompanied Kallor's betrayal: was it truly so efficacious as to leave you stunned for so long? Or did you hold back? Calculating the consequences of your inaction - after all, you've done it before, Tayschrenn, haven't you?'
Tayschrenn?
But the ragged, apaink-racked voice that replied was that of Artanthos, the standard-bearer. 'Silverfox. Plese. I would not-'
'Wouldn't you?'
'No. Whiskeyjack - he's -'
'I know,' Silverfox snapped.
A poorly mended leg... never the right time - Brood could have- He's dead. Oh, my love, no...'
Blurred figures were on all sides now. Malazan soldiers. Barghast. Someone began keening with grief.
The man she had known as Artanthos leaned over her. Sorcery had split t flesh of his face - the touch of chaos, she recognized. A fiercer touch than what she could have survived. She knew, then, in her soul, that the High Mage had willed no delay to his response.
That he'd manaegd anything at all was... extraorginady. She met his eyes, saw the layers of pain that still racked through the man.
'Sil...'
'Korlat?'
'Woman,' the Tiste Andii said, the word slurred but audible, 'this man...'
'Yes? Ge us Tayschrenn, Korlat. The part of me that is Nightchill has known him for a long time. I was coming to the conf--'
'. . . thank him'
'What?'
'For. . . your . . . life. Thank him, woman.' She held still to Tayschrenn's eye. Dark grey, like Whiskeyjack's. 'Kallor - he's surprised us all . . .'
The man winced, then slowly nodded. 'I am sorry, Korlat. I should have seen- '
'Yes. Me, too. And Brood.'
She could feel horse hooves drumming the earth beneath her, the vibration rising up to settle in her bones.
A dirge. Drums, a lost sound. Horses, driven hard... knowing nothing of the reason, yet they come. Closer. Mindless, yet filled with the urgency of incomprehensible masters.
But death has already ridden across this hilltop.
Knowing nothing of reason.
My love.
He is yours, now, Hood. . . do you smile?
My love is. . . yours . . .'

Memories of Ice, on pag. 891, 892., said:

Dujek had stepped past Korlat to kneel before t three fallen Malazans. 'Who was here?' he grated, hand reaching up to rub his own face. 'Who saw what happened?'
'Myself,' Korlat replied without inflection. 'And Tayschrenn. The moment Silverfox appeared, Kallor struck the two of us down first, enssuring that we could be incapable of reacting. I do not think he anticipated that Whiskeyjack and the two marines would step into his path. They delayed him long enough for Tayschrenn to recover. Kallor was forced to flee to his new master - the Crippled God.'
'Whiskeyjack crossed swords with Kallor?' Dujek drew the rain cape away from Whiskeyjack's body, silently studied his friend.
'This shattered leg. was it responsible. . . '
Gruntle saw Korlat - who still stood behind Dujek - hesitate, then she said, 'No, High Fist. It broke after the mortal blow.'
After a long moment, Dujek shook his head. 'We kept telling him to have it properly healed. "Later," he'd say. Always "later". Are you certain Korlat? That is broke after?'
'Yes, High Fist.'
Dujek frowned, eyes fixed on the dead soldier before him. 'Whiskeyjack was a superb swordsman. . . used to spar with Dassem Ultor and it'd take a while for Dassem to get past his guard.' He glanced over his shoulder, at Korlat, then at Tayschrenn. 'And with thwe two marines at his flanks. .. how long, High Mage, until you recovered?'
Tayschrenn grimaced, shot Korlat a glance, then said, 'Only moments, Dujek. Moments. . . too late.'
'High Fist,' Korlat said, 'Kallor's prowess with the blade... he is a formidable warrior.'
Gruntle could see the frown on Dujek's face deepening.
Stonny muttered under her breath, 'This doesn't sound right. That broken leg must've come first.'
He reached out and gripped her arm, then shook his head. No, Korlat must have reason for this. This. . . deceit.
Stonny's eyes narrowed, but she fell silent.
With a rough sigh, Dujek straightened. 'I have lost a friend,' he said.

[iktaral pust]

i do agree with volcan , i think theyre just miss kallor' s prowess , i can remember a passage ( i don't remember the characters but probably dujek and WJ or paran ) where they say that he is suposed to be the ruler of an extinct empire , so i dont think they know the exact truth and brood , rake and kallor assuming they know don't tell the malazaans

[Bauchelain the Evil]

That's not exactly true. WJ and Dujek know that Kallor is thousands years old. They were present when SF accused him of destroying his empire and WJ also calls Kallor a near-Ascendant when he understands that Brood and Co had always suspected that the CG was behind the Pannion Domin

[AstroLAB!GO]

This is a very interesting thread. I like Kallor a lot, he is probably not the straight forward evil bad guy that I feel some people think he is or want hime to be. The first thing I want to say is a lot more is revealed about Kallor in TtH. So some of what you are speculating on has answers, especially in regards to his prowess with the sword. However, to the large issues being discussed I feel like you are missing the point. He was cursed by K'rul, Draconus, and...hmm forget the third one, to a life unending. He can't die! So it doesn't matter who he faces, WJ, Brood, Rake, he will either be victorious or at least escape with his life. As to what power ensures this I don't have a clue and SE might not either. The reason may not be as important to the story as the fact. Maybe their is power out their similar to the Errant or Oponn that will always be tipping things in the balance of Kallor, laying the ground work with a myriad of minor seemiling insignificant details (i.e. a leg that is never healed) that in the end ensures that Kallor continues in existence.

Pure speculation on my part but I think the end of Kallor's existence will be critical to the complete story arc of the MBotF. I see two ways this will happen: (1) he will sacrifice him self in such a manner that the sacrifice is responsible for the salvation of as many lives as he took way back when, btw we still don't know the reason for that past atroscity do we?; or (2) K'rul, Draconus, and the third god will all die or cease to exist, the curse will lose it's efficacy and he will succumb to extreme old age or maybe just finally get bested in combat.

Anyway, just a few of my thoughts on one of the more interesting characters in the series.

Cheers.

[Ulrik]

Well, he cant die, but his body is still damagable. In MoI he screams for help from CG and healing. He can be impaled, chopped... and most importantly - he is older and older, he have to use alchemy to make his body as healthy as possible. He cant die, but can be withering old man unable to move... and with Tay´s magic, he could ended like crispy molten pie of meat and bones...with mind and immortality. Thats my view of Kallor´s curse.

And for his nature... he is bastard. Sacrificed whole kingdom, made genocide of many nations and tribes... OK, I LIKE his book parts...but he is fraker...

[AstroLAB!GO]

Good points Ulrik. Its been along time since I read MoI, and I just finished TtH, so I'm definitely biased towards his actions and POV from TtH. I can't recall, is it ever said in any of the books why he destroyed his kingdom/country/continent? Is their a possibility that there were reasons for his actions beside pure evil or selfishness? Even if not, a couple hundred thousand years is a long time to potentially grow and evolve from who he was way back when. Interesting concept, in our short lived lives atrocious unlawful actions and the resulting punishments are with you for your entire life. I wonder how that persepective would change if you were immortal or very very very long lived. Redemption for extremely horrific acts is hard to achieve in 75 years maybe not so hard to achive in 100,000.

This post has been edited by AstroLAB!GO: 22 October 2009 - 11:39 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think he torched jacuruku just to be a dick to the elder gods who were coming to free the people from him. so, selfishness i guess.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

The three elder gods had decided that Kallor's rule was so brutal that it needed to be ended. He knew they were coming, and he couldn't defeat them, so he torched it and killed all the inhabitants. The responded by cursing him and being cursed in return. I like to think Jacuruku is shaped like a fist and the fires were strategically placed so that it looked like the continent was flipping a giant bird to the cosmos.

[Benito]

Sinisdar and WJD are correct. Kallor burnt down his empire to deny K'rul, Draconus and the Sister of Cold Nights the opportunity to depose him from power.

My view of Kallor's curse is that he will age but not die of old age or disease, but he can die due to trauma.

[iktaral pust]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 22 October 2009 - 04:22 PM, said:

That's not exactly true. WJ and Dujek know that Kallor is thousands years old. They were present when SF accused him of destroying his empire and WJ also calls Kallor a near-Ascendant when he understands that Brood and Co had always suspected that the CG was behind the Pannion Domin

i agree with you ,that is waht i wanted to say they know after a speaking with brood that he is some ruler of exticnt empire etc , but that does not really gave them clues on his exact prowess