[Duvodas]

There is something I don't understand. According to history, six? mages brought down to the the land a god, which later became known as the Crippled God, to finish Kallor and his atrocities. Now, in MOI, I find that Whiskeyjack could have killed Kallor

I can only have two explanations for that, either Kallor's powress diminished. Or Erikson made a mistake there. I mean, a mortal cannot attempt to kill Kallor after a God was brought down from the heavens to do the same thing. For a mortal to attempt such a feat, he or she would have to have vast power, such as a god's. And clearly Whiskeyjack did not have it.

Why bring a god to kill a man who could have been killed by another man? Did Kallor have then a source of power that now he no longer possesses?

It could be that my former assumption is the answer--that of Kallor's powress being diminished; however, I find that that doesn't quite fit the image of an ascendant who wipped out an entire continent.

Any suggestions or thoughts in the matter?

[SiriusL]

I think it depends on what kind of power Kallor had. Nothing indicates he was a mage, unless you consider the annihilation of his empire as such evidence. But no other mentions exist of him having any magical power--the bout at the end of MoI was direct from the CG, and didn't seem to aid him other than in healing.

So, if his massive power was of the mundane sort (say, a mastery of superior technology), then his later problems are easily explained. The leaders of today's nuclear superpowers undoubtedly have the ability to destroy entire civilizations, but if you met them in a street fight, your chances might be pretty good.

[Turambar]

I think this is more of a testament to Whiskeyjack, than a question of Kallor's ability. SE talks about his power on numerous occassions, so we are well acquainted with what he can do. Whiskeyjack, on the other hand, gets little in the way of describing his actual power. SE readily tells about how others view Whiskeyjack, which is always in deepest regard. My conclusion is that there is much more to Whiskeyjack than we've been told up to this point. He must have done something, or is capable of something, special to earn the kind of regard he has... which leaves me excited and curious to learn more about, who is without question, one of my favorite characters.

[Dolorous Menhir]

An important point: Kallor was the High King of a continent-spanning empire when the Fall occurred. Those mages didn't just set up a god-trap so they could assassinate Kallor - they were trying to prevent the imminent invasion of their continent (Korelri) by the Kallorean Empire (based on Jacuruku).

The MoI prologue attributes Kallor's empire building to his martial prowess. Not magical ability. It seems very likely to me that he destroyed his empire using some kind of KCCM technology (a knowledge of which he displays in MoI, remains of which have been seen in the Imperial Warren). He is not a powerful mage.

Whiskeyjack was an excellent fighter, referenced as holding his own for a time against Dassem Ultor. I can believe that Kallor was a warrior capable of building an Empire, but still likely to lose to Whiskeyjack.

A further point - Whiskeyjack and Kallor did not fight alone. Silverfox's marine bodyguards died fighting him too.

[SiriusL]

I should revisit what I said earlier.

Is it significant that both Tayschrenn and Silverfox were somehow incapacitated until after WJ's death? Silverfox had enough time to call upon the T'lan Ay before WJ stepped in. To me, this indicates that Kallor was taking advantage of some magic somehow.

He did bargain with the CG--was the CG's contribution to incapacitate those two mages, or did Kallor use his own mysterious power?

[Lostara Yil]

It's not impossible to kill a god/ascendant. Coltaine died, and Nil and Nether claimed he was an ascendant. Nor is it impossible to go behind a god's/ascendant's back, as we have seen often with Quick Ben and Shadowthrone. So Kallor has weaknesses... he probably would have been killed, or at least had a rough time, if Whiskeyjack's leg hadn't failed.

I believe the scene where Kallor turns and Whiskeyjack dies, there is something mentioned that Whiskeyjack is superb with a sword, and would have killed Kallor if his leg hadn't broken. It might have been Korlat's thoughts on the matter afterwards. Don't have the book with me atm, so I'm not sure about that one. And as far as Kallor's power is concerned, I agree with others in saying that we're not sure what kind of powers he had... but with regards to destroying his own empire, that did not necessarily have to be done with any sort of mechanical or magical means. Tell some loyal servants to go kill some people, destroy villages, crops... start some trouble...kill themselves... chaos occurs.

Anywho, just my opinion Whiskeyjack would have kicked ass. :>

[Dolorous Menhir]

SiriusL;195804 said:

I should revisit what I said earlier.

Is it significant that both Tayschrenn and Silverfox were somehow incapacitated until after WJ's death? Silverfox had enough time to call upon the T'lan Ay before WJ stepped in. To me, this indicates that Kallor was taking advantage of some magic somehow.

He did bargain with the CG--was the CG's contribution to incapacitate those two mages, or did Kallor use his own mysterious power?

The CG was acting on his behalf. Kallor hit Korlat over the head, but Tayschrenn and Silverfox were largely incapacitated by Chaos-magic, presumably controlled by the CG. At no point did Kallor demonstrate any magical ability, he never has. When he was wounded, he cried out to the CG for help, and he got yanked out of there by magic portal before he was killed. It was the CG that provided the magical aid, it was the CG that rescued him.

[Fiddler]

Ok as Emperor Kallor he probably had a dedicated cadre of people who wanted to protect him (his Empire basically) thus the mages decided they needed a god's help to keep said empire (and Kallor) off their soil. Now when confronted by WJ, and distracted by the two marines, there's only so much a terrifyingly old man can do, like down some geritol, grab onto his walker and try to hobble away, in full armor.

[Duvodas]

All right. You guys have made your respective points clear as water. I agree with some of them. However, I'm reluctant to say that Kallor doesn't have formidable fighting skills. Erikson, in MOI's prologue, describes Kallor as "a warrior without equal." Subsecuently, I'm inclined to think that Kallor is, indeed, good at fighting. As to what he used to conquer the continent...well, can be some technology, can be his own armies, can be anything that possesse vast power. As many have said, "I don't know."

Another thing. The three Elder Gods cursed Kallor so that he could never ascend; however, isn't Kallor the Reaver of the House of Chains. Doesn't that mean you're an ascendant. Or is it that in order to have a place on the Houses you can also be a mere mortal?

[Dolorous Menhir]

You don't have to be an ascendant to have a place in the Deck. Just look at the Whiskeyjack as Mason of Death in GotM, Kalam as Assassin of Death at one point (DG).

Those are temporary or minor posts, but it's certainly not the case that only ascendants get a card. I've had to leave out some more persuasive examples because this is the MoI forum, but it seems clear to me that holding a card is not restricted to ascendants.

[SiriusL]

Duvodas;195831 said:

All right. You guys have made your respective points clear as water. I agree with some of them. However, I'm reluctant to say that Kallor doesn't have formidable fighting skills. Erikson, in MOI's prologue, describes Kallor as "a warrior without equal." Subsecuently, I'm inclined to think that Kallor is, indeed, good at fighting.

Oh, I'm sure he is. We don't know how WJ would have truly fared--it seems to be a pretty good contest at that point. I guess his fight with the marines wasn't all that impressive, given what we've seen of other individuals who fight groups. But Tays did light him up at one point, so we again didn't get to see his full potential as a swordfighter.

The other thing is, Kallor is still a tactical and strategic genius, possible unparalleled even today (maybe Dujek and Coltaine or others we haven't seen, like Greymane). That could be what K'rul meant.

[Duvodas]

SiriusL;195953 said:

The other thing is, Kallor is still a tactical and strategic genius, possible unparalleled even today (maybe Dujek and Coltaine or others we haven't seen, like Greymane). That could be what K'rul meant.

Mind you, warrior and strategos are two completely different terms. However, this can become a semantic argument, so let's leave it at that.

[rlfcl]

there's a quote at some point in the book talking about how Kallor only fights lesser opponents in order to look unbeatable. the quote goes something like "have you ever crossed blades with Greymane, with Anomander Rake, or with the Seguleh First?". so i think it's fair to assume that he's not the best around

also, when k'rul said that (a hundred thousand years or so ago), Kallor may well have been the best swordsman around. But times change. Look at Tool: He was unparalleled in his time, yet was beaten pretty handily by Mok, who wasn't even the highest ranking seguleh.

[Kalahinen]

Kallor is an old man. His physical abilities aren't what they used to be. He wasn't agile enough to avoid stumbling when fighting Whiskeyjack, he wasn't fast enough to block that marine's thrust in his stomach.

He was not in his prime anymore.

[Aleksandrov]

I think that Kallor's powers were majorly diminished after the Elder God's cursed him. They did say he can never ascend but will live forever. And we know at the moment that you can ascend if you have a strong amount of power so in my opinion Kallor's powers were peaked and diminishes with every age and he can never be that strong again.

The other theory I believe is that in those days Kallor was very strong in his terms. Much like Alexander the Great in Ancient Times. In comparison to today, that may not seem much now but in those days he was very powerful. The only bad thing I see with this theory is that in those days a lot of the Elder spirits - Gods, Imass, Jaghut and especially Forkrul Assail were alive and they were definitely worth a match nowadays during Memories.

Meh. Maybe Kallor's powers were exaggerated. I'm only up to House of Chains so maybe a lot more may be revealed.

[chill]

Aleksandrov;199222 said:

In comparison to today, that may not seem much now but in those days he was very powerful. The only bad thing I see with this theory is that in those days a lot of the Elder spirits - Gods, Imass, Jaghut and especially Forkrul Assail were alive and they were definitely worth a match nowadays during Memories.

Sure, they were around - but too far away to care. Else some of them would react earlier, before he incinerated an entire continent.
However, I can't understand why the Gods cursed him. They could've just killed him on the spot, or send him somewhere to suffer eternal torment. One might conclude they weren't powerful enough to deal with him that way but, since WJ kicked his ass, I find it hard to believe.

[Aleksandrov]

Maybe K'rul, Draconus and Sister of Cold Nights just wanted him to suffer like what he did to Jacurutu.

They were vengeful gods back then.

[GanoesParan00]

Hmm. . . true but if Kallor had no magical power, How was he able to curse all 3 elder Gods? at the time he was just a mortle and a warrior, not ascendent nor mage, so how could he curse "3 Gods with one mortal voice"?

[Kalahinen]

By the way,
at some point in MoI, Korlat (could be someone else saying it) says to Whiskeyjack something about 'how she could sense the respective powers of those in the camp, Brood, Anomander, Silverfox AND KALLOR'. She states it clearly that she could sense also Kallor's aura of power.

So, according to Korlat Kallor does posses some power.

[Aptorian]

Ganoes Paran;199526 said:

Hmm. . . true but if Kallor had no magical power, How was he able to curse all 3 elder Gods? at the time he was just a mortle and a warrior, not ascendent nor mage, so how could he curse "3 Gods with one mortal voice"?

I've heard two different theories on this:

A: The sacrifice of 12 millions souls gave him power, maybe Kallor intended it or perhaps it was a natural effect of the sacrifice. Anyway that much death gave him the power to curse three Elder Gods in their prime (I know their time was ending but they were still strong)

B: Some kind of rule to curses says that the one cursed is by cause and effect able to revisit the power of a curse upon the caster. We've heard mages say that if they know the nature of a curse they can unravel it. So there are some laws or a science to this.

About Kallors power before he became pumped on CG juice. Its told that people who are not naturally adept in magic can still learn to use magic. Kallor has had plenty of time to learn the secrets of the occult and supernatural. Also Kallor knows a lot about alchemy, weird shit is possible with the right brew.

I think people like Bauchelin and Korbald Broach are evidence, their warrens aside, of what you could achieve with necromancy and alchemy.