[mmdw45]

When Scabby betrayed Silchas and tossed him in the Azath, Osric moved to intercept Rake. According to Udinaas' vision in MT, Osric claimed that they clashed and Osric got the worst of it (something about Osric underestimating the power of anger/vengeance). According to the RG Prologue, Rake went hunting in KE instead with Kilmandaros. Is this intended to show that Udinaas' visions are untrustworthy? Or did Osric follow Rake into KE and the MT conversation came after they fought there? (I doubt it, since the MT conversation makes Rake look like the aggressor.) Or was Osric just lying about a black eye that he got tripping over a rock?

-Max

[Skywalker]

Quote

From RG Prologue:

“Where is Osserc?” the Elder Goddess asked. “Mael informed me that he --”
“Was planning to get in my way again? Osserc imagined I would take part in slaying Scabandari. Why should I? You and Mael were more than enough.” He then grunted. “I can picture Osserc, circling round and round. Looking for me. Idiot.”

So there was a prior interception, where Osserc would've come off worse of the two...

Based on your reference to Anger/ Vengeance... was Rake carrying what became Andarist's sword at the time? Did the Tiste invasion post-date the death of Draconus at his hands?

[Mael]

sky_walker;195220 said:

So there was a prior interception, where Osserc would've come off worse of the two...

Based on your reference to Anger/ Vengeance... was Rake carrying what became Andarist's sword at the time? Did the Tiste invasion post-date the death of Draconus at his hands?

Congrats, you hit the nail right on the head. Dragnipur was not created until after the events in the prologue of MoI which was during the time of the human first empire. This all occured long after the events in the Prologues of RG and MT.

So at the time Rake was packing Vengence as Dragnipur wasn't forged until the time of Dessimbelakis' human first empire. Rake obviously took Osseric to task with it before entering KE with Kilmandaros.

[Dolorous Menhir]

mmdw45;195200 said:

When Scabby betrayed Silchas and tossed him in the Azath, Osric moved to intercept Rake. According to Udinaas' vision in MT, Osric claimed that they clashed and Osric got the worst of it (something about Osric underestimating the power of anger/vengeance). According to the RG Prologue, Rake went hunting in KE instead with Kilmandaros. Is this intended to show that Udinaas' visions are untrustworthy? Or did Osric follow Rake into KE and the MT conversation came after they fought there? (I doubt it, since the MT conversation makes Rake look like the aggressor.) Or was Osric just lying about a black eye that he got tripping over a rock?

-Max

It's not intended to show anything. Udinaas's vision of Osserc obviously took place at a later time, it has nothing to do with the Osserc-Rake encounter in the time of the MT/RG prologue, which we know did not take place.

To back that up, the Tiste sisters were going to the Lether Azath to ditch Sheltatha with Ruin. It seemed to me that they were able to do this because Scabby was no longer around to protect his daughter, Lore.

They would not have been doing that at the time of the MT/RG prologue, since Ruin had only just ended up there and Scabby was not yet dead. The time of Udinaas' vision was not the time of the RG prologue - Rake and Osserc have fought many times.

[Obdigore]

DM:

Many times? At least once, imo. I believe the actual vision has rake saying something like 'he moved to intercept me again, this time I avoided him, he is so predictable'. Implying, obviously, that they had clashed before. Just because it did not happen at that time does not mean it never happened.

[Abyss]

Udi's visions jump around in time. The one of Ossi all beat up chatting with Sukul and Menandore took place at some point after the MT prologue, but not necessarily RIGHT after, so this could have been the result of a completely different episode of conflict between Ossi and Rake.

They seem to have a history of it - someone at some point ref's a visit by Iccy and Mappo to Moon's Spawn where Rake and Ossi (i think) almost come to blows again.


- Abyss, bets Moon's Spawn has great room service.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;195264 said:

It's not intended to show anything. Udinaas's vision of Osserc obviously took place at a later time, it has nothing to do with the Osserc-Rake encounter in the time of the MT/RG prologue, which we know did not take place.

To back that up, the Tiste sisters were going to the Lether Azath to ditch Sheltatha with Ruin. It seemed to me that they were able to do this because Scabby was no longer around to protect his daughter, Lore.

They would not have been doing that at the time of the MT/RG prologue, since Ruin had only just ended up there and Scabby was not yet dead. The time of Udinaas' vision was not the time of the RG prologue - Rake and Osserc have fought many times.

I figured something was fishy. It would make alot more sense if Osseric found Rake AFTER Rake exited KE after Kilmandaros had betrayed him (in RG she says she did it to pre-empt his own treachery which she assumed would come because of his being both Andii and Soletaken). It would also explain why Rake would be soo pissed and lay such a beating on Osseric at the time aswell.

I would assume Udinass' vision of the sisters and Osseric comes shortly after the events in the RG Prologue and not in between.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, I looked up Udinaas' vision, and it turns out I was totally wrong. It starts on p.276 of Midnight Tides (UK mmpb).

It's clear from the dialogue that Ruin has only just been put in the Azath. Osserc actually told the Tiste sisters that Scabby was no more, and they were shocked. They had taken out Sheltath because they thought her father would not care about what happened to her, not because they knew Scabby was out of action. So that puts it in a very narrow time window, very soon after the betrayal, and death of Scabandari.

And it's clear from Osric's dialogue that he had just fought Anomander in order to prevent him finding Scabby and avenging his brother. So Rake must have actually battled with Osric at some point after the RG prologue, but before the Elder Gods killed Scabby.

Midnight Tides, on p.277, said:

Osserc scowled. "Anomander. He got the better of me this time."

This time. So they have fought more than once, as you say Obdigore.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;195282 said:

Well, I looked up Udinaas' vision, and it turns out I was totally wrong. It starts on p.276 of Midnight Tides (UK mmpb).

It's clear from the dialogue that Ruin has only just been put in the Azath. Osserc actually told the Tiste sisters that Scabby was no more, and they were shocked. They had taken out Sheltath because they thought her father would not care about what happened to her, not because they knew Scabby was out of action. So that puts it in a very narrow time window, very soon after the betrayal, and death of Scabandari.

And it's clear from Osric's dialogue that he had just fought Anomander in order to prevent him finding Scabby and avenging his brother. So Rake must have actually battled with Osric at some point after the RG prologue, but before the Elder Gods killed Scabby.

Ya this makes sense. I dont think they faught before Rake entered KE with Kilmandaros though but slightly afterwards when he leaves it, perhaps later in the day (after all he mentions that "he has nothing better to do today" when he and kil go to cleanse the warren leading me to believe that it wouldn't take them very long).

As for Osseric stating that Rake got the better of him "that time", it does not indicate that they faught twice in the same day but rather that they have a history of fighting with each other over the years (millenia??). There was another quote where someone mentions that Osseric is going to impede Rake and they say "Again" like its some kind of trend between the two which is most likely the case.

[mmdw45]

The "Again" is Gothos to Mael, from the MT Prologue.

There's a problem with the hypothesis that Osserc intercepted Rake *after* the cleasing of KE, namely that by the time Kilmandaros went back to KE Scabby was already dead, and Osserc would have no more reason to interfere. It's true that he doesn't _quite_ state that he was trying to save Scabby ("I delayed him long enough..." says Osserc. "To save Scabandari?" interrupts Menandore) but the conversation between Gothos and Mael in the MT Prologue and the conversation between Rake and Kilmandaros in the RG Prologue both imply that Osserc was attempting to interpose himself between Rake and Scabby. Thus. The two accounts are inconsistent.

Incidentally, Menandore talks about how Tiam dies over and over, and "nothing ever changes!" Tiam has been dead for a very long time now. I wonder if K'rul and the warrens and the spiked otataral dragon have anything to do with that. Perhaps the big resurrection of the last book is Tiam.

-Max

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;195319 said:

As for Osseric stating that Rake got the better of him "that time", it does not indicate that they faught twice in the same day but rather that they have a history of fighting with each other over the years (millenia??). There was another quote where someone mentions that Osseric is going to impede Rake and they say "Again" like its some kind of trend between the two which is most likely the case.

Right, that's what I was saying all along. That they have a history of fighting. Maybe it wasn't clear above, I wasn't saying that they fought many times in that one day.

mmdw45;195371 said:

There's a problem with the hypothesis that Osserc intercepted Rake *after* the cleasing of KE, namely that by the time Kilmandaros went back to KE Scabby was already dead, and Osserc would have no more reason to interfere. It's true that he doesn't _quite_ state that he was trying to save Scabby ("I delayed him long enough..." says Osserc. "To save Scabandari?" interrupts Menandore) but the conversation between Gothos and Mael in the MT Prologue and the conversation between Rake and Kilmandaros in the RG Prologue both imply that Osserc was attempting to interpose himself between Rake and Scabby. Thus. The two accounts are inconsistent.

This does seem like a problem - looking at the RG prologue (not going from memory this time) it seems like the chain of events is this:

- Scabby betrays Ruin (MT prologue)

- Gothos carries out ritual, Mael talks to him (MT)

- Kilmandaros kills some dragons in KE (first passage of RG prologue, the order of this in relation to second event is not clear to me, but not really important, just included for detail)

- Kilmandaros and Mael subdue Scabandari, Gothos turns up, having just completed the ritual. (second passage of RG.)

- No specific time elapsed since prior scene is given, but I do not think it was long)

- Scabandari executed

- Kilmandaros and Rake meet in KE, Rake says that Osserc is still looking for him, he knows Scabby was dead, and that he had no interest in killing Scabby anyway so Osserc was wasting his time (third passage of RG prologue.

So mmdw45 is right to ask - at what point are Osserc and Rake supposed to have the fight stated to have taken place in this timeframe, from Udinaas' vision in HoC?

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;195560 said:

So mmdw45 is right to ask - at what point are Osserc and Rake supposed to have the fight stated to have taken place in this timeframe, from Udinaas' vision in HoC?

Who is to say that Osseric automatically has to stop looking for Rake after Scabby is "dead". Maybe Osseric was looking for a fight or maybe Rake was so pissed after Killmandaros betrays him in KE that he went looking for her and Osseric misconstrued Rake reasons and intercepted him. A little confusion at the time may have made things interesting.

[Talamadas]

Looking at what we have seen of Rake I would say that most of his battles would end with some kind of finality. In my opinion one of them would be dead or in an Azath if they had fought.
The pride of the Knight of Darkness would be utterly damaged if he lost to Osserc which would result in more fighting(then to the death)
They were always close to fighting but they never did.

[Abyss]

Talamadas;195896 said:

Looking at what we have seen of Rake I would say that most of his battles would end with some kind of finality. In my opinion one of them would be dead or in an Azath if they had fought.
The pride of the Knight of Darkness would be utterly damaged if he lost to Osserc which would result in more fighting(then to the death)
They were always close to fighting but they never did.

Disagree. rake and Ossi are polar opposites in more ways than one. Conflict between them is almost inevitable.

That does not mean Rake is always going to kill ANYONE he EVER fights, nor toss them under an Azath, especially not someone who is technically family.

And Rake's not terribly hung up on pride. He seems too practical for that.

In any event, it's clear they have fought and almost fought at least a few times.

- Abyss, bets Ossi fights like a ponce.

[Mael]

Abyss;195898 said:

Disagree. rake and Ossi are polar opposites in more ways than one. Conflict between them is almost inevitable.

That does not mean Rake is always going to kill ANYONE he EVER fights, nor toss them under an Azath, especially not someone who is technically family.

And Rake's not terribly hung up on pride. He seems too practical for that.

In any event, it's clear they have fought and almost fought at least a few times.

- Abyss, bets Ossi fights like a ponce.

Agreed. Rake has shown himself to be the most level headed and practical character in the books, both in the past and present. His self control is immesurable and is more then capable of walking away from a battle that ends inconclusivly if he felt as if that was the correct course of action.

Also, i've noticed on the few minor occasions where we actually see Osseric he is increadibly emotionless (maybe hes half FA lol) except when hes speaking about Rake.

[Imperial Historian]

The only way I've managed to resolve this little timeline conflict is that one of the two is lying, either
osserc, who clearly informed about the events with bloodeye was supposed to stop rake, but rake avoided him and cleansed emurlahn, after the cleansing rake emerges, osserc finds him and fights, osserc then meets the two sisters, and 'claims' to have prevented anomander from killing bloodeye to stop himself looking stupid, all that requires is a not very long period for rake to cleanse emurlahn and the sisters to remain uninformed (easy enough on a world that size) for a while of the fate of bloodeye
or rake beats osserc, then claims otherwise to make osserc look stupid.

either that or SE just made a mistake again, I think the 1st option is more likely as rake doesn't seem to show any evidence of any encounter with osserc which presumably with the damage done to osserc he would have had something to show for it.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Imperial Historian;195930 said:

The only way I've managed to resolve this little timeline conflict is that one of the two is lying, either
osserc, who clearly informed about the events with bloodeye was supposed to stop rake, but rake avoided him and cleansed emurlahn, after the cleansing rake emerges, osserc finds him and fights, osserc then meets the two sisters, and 'claims' to have prevented anomander from killing bloodeye to stop himself looking stupid, all that requires is a not very long period for rake to cleanse emurlahn and the sisters to remain uninformed (easy enough on a world that size) for a while of the fate of bloodeye
or rake beats osserc, then claims otherwise to make osserc look stupid.

either that or SE just made a mistake again, I think the 1st option is more likely as rake doesn't seem to show any evidence of any encounter with osserc which presumably with the damage done to osserc he would have had something to show for it.

How do you account for the damage Osserc has suffered in Udinaas' vision then? He's been burned, at least. He fought something.

[Folken]

You know...this bugged since we first got the prologue. But it doesn't actually state the two of them fought. Rake has an entire army on Andii, so he didn't come alone. Osric says Rake got the better of him this time (in MT) though it is not stated physically. Osric could've just fought the other Andii Elient in his search for Rake.

Osric says he's been squabbling with Rake in response to a question from his daughter but...well I dunno I just figure he'd say Rake even if he fought other Andii. And Osric has been, from the description in MT, in one serious fight and his wounds would suggest multiple assailants in my opinion at least.

But yeah just a suggestion...it would solve things lol

[Imperial Historian]

Yeah, that's also a possibility Jen, after all we know that some of rake's andii are very near to the battle rescuing the remaining andii as they do...

And in both my explanations rake fights osserc dolorous, osserc just lies about him delaying rake, and rake lies about not fighting osserc.

[mmdw45]

Dolorous Menhir;196020 said:

How do you account for the damage Osserc has suffered in Udinaas' vision then? He's been burned, at least. He fought something.

It could be that this is to show that Udinaas' visions are not completely trustworthy.

-Max