[snoopster]

Dolorous Menhir;198877 said:

Possibly, but two objections:

1. Dassem Ultor (Traveller) actually has a sword called Vengeance that was made by Rake. That seems a stronger link that "Clip might want revenge".

2. Don't expect me to believe that Clip will take on Rake. He might be an arrogant little punk, but he doesn't appear to be suicidal.

1. To quote Clip from RG - "Oh, Anomander Rake, we will find you. And you will give answer to us. No, not even a god can blithely walk away, can escape the consequences. Of betrayal.
Yes, we will find you. And we will show you. We will show you. We will show you just how it feels."
that hardly sounds to me like he is planning to talk things through over tea and cake...

2. No, I don't think he is arrogant.... not when it comes to his ability with arms. He might have been before he got beaten down by Trull with the spear but not now. I suspect he has got a great faith in his schemes though - he's just picked up Rake's children and is seeking vengeance, with a background of lies to everyone he meets... That all adds up to a bit of scheme to bring Rake down rather than force of arms.

That seems a better tie in than the Dassem, who has Rake's old sword called Vengeance and that's it - unless I'm forgetting another reason why the two should go looking for each other?

[Dolorous Menhir]

snoopster;198939 said:

That seems a better tie in than the Dassem, who has Rake's old sword called Vengeance and that's it - unless I'm forgetting another reason why the two should go looking for each other?

You make good points. That is the main flaw in "Rake will fight Traveller" - the pair have no good reason to fight. The best reason I could think of was that Traveller was once leader of the Malazan military, and Rake fought them on several occasions. But that seems a weak motivation, especially given Rake's pragmatism in MoI when he is willing to set aside his past differences with the Malazans. And the fact that Ultor/Traveller doesn't appear to care about such things any more.

Perhaps Rake had some involvement in the downfall of Ultor from his position as Knight of Death, but that is speculation.

I just can't really take Clip seriously as a threat to Rake, especially one that is important enough to figure in random prophecies by the Letherii.

[snoopster]

Dolorous Menhir;198943 said:

I just can't really take Clip seriously as a threat to Rake, especially one that is important enough to figure in random prophecies by the Letherii.

I do agree with you, in terms of a straight fight it would be over in seconds but perhaps how he fought Fear might show his prefered style? He's an assassin, not a warrior.... of course, perhaps Clip is the one who will set up a Rake/ Dassem fight with the plan of taking Rake down while he is weakened and distracted?

[Cougar]

Dolorous Menhir;198943 said:

You make good points. That is the main flaw in "Rake will fight Traveller" - the pair have no good reason to fight. The best reason I could think of was that Traveller was once leader of the Malazan military, and Rake fought them on several occasions. But that seems a weak motivation, especially given Rake's pragmatism in MoI when he is willing to set aside his past differences with the Malazans. And the fact that Ultor/Traveller doesn't appear to care about such things any more.

Hmmm...it does seem unlikey at this stage that Rake and Daseem will go toe-to-toe (based on the current motives and characters of the two individuals) but stranger things have happended and there is 3 books left, and I suppose it could happen in an ICE novel as well. I mean 3 books ago would you have expected Quick,Trull or Alrada Ahn (sp) to fight Icarium (especially given Icarium's reticence in fighting generally)?

I do think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that the bearer of Vengance will fight Rake though.

[Abyss]

Snoopster's point is a good one tho' - we don't know WHY Rake picthed all his kids onto Avalii with Darist. Maybe that was an act of revenge in some way that Clip is bringing back to Rake.

On a different front, it's been hinted (hence no spoiler warnings) that ICE will have both Rake and Dassem in RotCG.

BUT, cross swords does not automatically follow to 'break Dragnipur'. Supposedly that was Paran's intent. And if the Withal point holds true, Paran (or whoever) is going to need to take Dragnipur from whomever is holding it at the time and bring it to wherever Draconus forged it.

- Abyss, thread fus back to topic again. Hi-yah!!

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Remember that Icarium told Taralack Veed that he thought Traveller was a man of such talent that, should the two fight, Icarium might be the one who lost.

Despite the prophecy, I am hoping that the Rake and Dassem fight ends up being a red herring; I could see Rake freaking out over Vengeance being in the hands of somebody other than Andarist, but I don't think it would take a fight to the death for an explanation to be revealed. However, that being said, I really hope that Traveller makes another appearance in the books.

[Dancer+]

Traveller will be making an appearance in Return of the Crimson Guard apparently, and it has been surmised that Rake may make an appearance too. RotCG sounds awesome from what i've heard so far.

[Bent]

Someone tell me why Icarium wouldn't be the one to break Rake's Sword. In Deadhouse gates when Icarium first loses his temper (not sure about actual Quote) He pulls out his Sword, and it states that that sword" cannot be Broken". would this not lead you to beleive that a confrontation between Rake and Icarium would cause the shattering or Rake's sword. Oh. and I realize that they have no beef against each other at the moment... but we are talking hypothetically

[Dolorous Menhir]

Bent;200192 said:

Someone tell me why Icarium wouldn't be the one to break Rake's Sword. In Deadhouse gates when Icarium first loses his temper (not sure about actual Quote) He pulls out his Sword, and it states that that sword" cannot be Broken". would this not lead you to beleive that a confrontation between Rake and Icarium would cause the shattering or Rake's sword. Oh. and I realize that they have no beef against each other at the moment... but we are talking hypothetically

Well...Karsa has an unbreakable sword too. So that's not proof that it has to be Icarium who breaks Dragnipur.

[Bent]

Is it? I thought Karsa's sword was a "broken " piece of A larger section.... I could be Wrong but would that not Meen that it could be broken again

[Dolorous Menhir]

The spirits of Bairoth Gild and Delum Thord are supposed to make it unbreakable, no?

[Bent]

By the way i wasn't stating that it had to be Icarium over Karsa... Just that it seems to me Icarium is the more powerful of the two.... and while it would make for a good fight.. Icarium would pummel Karsa... He ( Icarium) Shattered a warren. so I Believe that it is more likely that Icarium would have a better chance or breaking Rakes Sword than would Karsa

[wintermute]

I think Karsa's sword was made unbreakable by the T'lann Imass bonecasters (serving the Crippled God). It seems to me that as far as unbreakable things go, a stone sword blessed by T'lann Imass severed from the ritual would be more breakable than either Dragnipur (forged by an elder god) or Icarium's sword (just because if Icarium has used it for god knows how long, its got to be pretty tough).

[Flimflam Man]

Posted in wrong thread!

[Obdigore]

Back to the first part, regarding rake v traveller.

Dassem's daughter was 'used' (killed? shes in an azath I think) in a chaining, during the betraying of Dassem by Hood. Yes?

What if she is 'mindless', as in her mind (conciousness) was used to 'invest' the CG's chains with an intelligence to actively defy his attempts to escape.

Now, what if Dassem knows this? What if he is contacted by the crippled god, and told that the CG can break the chains, and destroy Dassem's daughters mind in the process, or, if Dassem decides to serve the CG, and protect him, he can possibly get her mind back in her body, and then destroy the chains?

Now, I have no evidence to support this, however this series really is attempting to be a greek tragedy, and what is more tragic than a former hero being turned against the 'good' guys, to avenge his betrayal(I cannot spell this FLIPPEN word.) and ends up killing/wounding the good 'Knight', while shattering the sword, as it needed to be shattered to continue the path of the warren of darkness, thereby possibly saving the world, while being torn apart from the creatures released from the sword that rake has killed over the years?

SE, if you read this, and this is what happens, I want early copies of all your novels ;P

[Aptorian]

wintermute;200432 said:

I think Karsa's sword was made unbreakable by the T'lann Imass bonecasters (serving the Crippled God). It seems to me that as far as unbreakable things go, a stone sword blessed by T'lann Imass severed from the ritual would be more breakable than either Dragnipur (forged by an elder god) or Icarium's sword (just because if Icarium has used it for god knows how long, its got to be pretty tough).

If I'm not mistaken Icarium breaks an Imass sword in BH. Imass swords are just warrenprotected stone, Now dragnipur, must needs be a stronger sword than a mere imass weapon, it was forged by an elder god in a process that seems to have taken a long long time.

Apt, everything breaks.

[Richai]

Agraba;195740 said:

As for Karsa against Rake... I don't think he'd make it. He seemed almost on par with the Seguleh 12th, but only won out because of his sheer size compared to hers. Rake killed the 7th, we don't know how he stands with the others, and I don't think getting caught and being dangled upside-down would be a problem for him against Karsa. Besides, I'm not so sure Karsa's natural ottattaral-blood makes him immune to Kurald Galain.

forgive me if I'm wrong here... but does Dragnipur need to actually mortally wound a person or just wound them to entrap their soul? As I recall from Rakes battle with the demon in GOTM, most of the damage was done to the demon initially by Rake's soultaken form and only when he skewered him with Dragnipur, which from my recollection was the first wounding with the sword, did the demon's soul get caught. Following this theory, it would be kind of easy for Rake to fight his way through to 7th if all he has to do is draw blood using Dragnipur to kill someone. Would also kind of make him seem less powerful than he really is if he can just rely on the sword that you only need to hit someone once with.

[Aptorian]

It's been debated what the sword is capable off.

A better example of the sword would be the hounds fight earlier in the book. One dog is stabbed (through and through I think?) which sounded like a mortal wound but the other dog was "just" slashed with the sword. Both were taken. It sounds like if you cut you self even sharpening the blade you're done for.

Perhaps we're supposed to think of it like a Chaos Marine sword that drinks blood, a mere touch and the sword drinks the soul of the victim.

[Boulder]

Yeah that second hound is desrcibed as "...sliced across its broad chest - it did not look like a killing wound..." (GotM, p472)

On the other hand, it might be because of the swords Dark/Shadow associations, and its not so powerful against others? I really wish Rake would just cut loose and carve a path through some of the more annoying characters...

And on breaking the sword, I've got a feeling Paran could do it pretty easily, if, say, he drew a card of it, then altered it to be broken, or something of that nature. If he does it in an Azath's grounds, Robert's your mother's brother...