[Tiste Simeon]

I have almost completely forgotten what GRRM's books are like... a re-read is defintely in order... When we find out a date...

[McLovin]

@gyre - interesting points you have there. Personally, I think RJ and GRRM's problems are that they endeavored to write a more traditional kind of story where the ending ties up all the loose threads, but their tales became so complex that has just become very difficult to do.

SE, on the other hand, is approaching his series with a bit more of an open weave, IMO. The major series arc will get resolved, but not every last character's ultimate fate will be decided. This has given him the freedom to jump around time periods and continents. I think this is why he hasn't really gotten bogged down yet...*crosses fingers*

[Kimpo]

good posts gyre I really found myself agreeing with much of what you said, always had a feeling Martin, and to a lesser extent Jordan, were trying too hard to be clever and that it affected the flow.
though everyone else seemed not to mind/notice so I was starting to think it was just in my head

have you read Redemption of Althalus by Eddings? that book gave me the same feeling but 10 times as bad

[gyrehead]

This is more of a list of what I will pick up as it comes out.

July
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince by J.K. Rowling
Harshini by Jennifer Fallon
Shadow Fall by James Clemens
The Truth-Teller's Tale by Sharon Shinn
The Traveler by John Twelve Hawks
Academ's Fury by Jim Butcher
Inda by Sherwood Smith
The Cry of the Newborn by James Barclay

August
Raven's Strike by Patricia Briggs
Melusine by Sarah Monette
Blood and Memory by Fiona McIntosh
Godslayer by Jacqueline Carey
A Princess of Roumania by Paul Park
Effendi by Jon Courtenay Grimwood
In the Ruins by Kate Elliott
Here in Cold Hell by Tanith Lee
The Hickory Staff by Robert Scott & Jay Gordon

September
Shaman's Crossing by Robin Hobb
The Sword of Angels by John Marco
Western Deep by Juliet McKenna
Chasing Fire by Michelle Welch
Daughter of Ancients by Carol Berg
The Dark Mirror by Juliet Marillier

October
Knife of Dreams by Robert Jordan
Troy: Lord of the Silver Bow by David Gemmell
The Singer's Crown by Elaine Isaak
Gilfeather by Glenda Larke
Threads of Malice by Tamara Siler Jones

November
Triad by Terry McGarry
The Gate of Gods by Martha Wells
The World Before by Karen Traviss
Dragon's Eye by James A. Hetley
Harrowing the Dragon by Patricia A. McKillip
Touched by Venom by Janine Cross
Windfall by Rachel Caine
In Golden Blood by Stephen Woodworth

December
Shapers of Darkness by David B. Coe
Orphans of Chaos by John C. Wright
Sorceror's Moon by Julian May
Bridge of the Seperator by Harry Turtledove

Hopefuls for 2005
A Feast for Crows by George R. R. Martin (November most likely it seems)
The Sword of the Deceiver by Sarah Zettel
Spellbinder by Melanie Rawn
Blood Knight by Greg Keyes
A Fortress of Ice by C.J. Cherryh
The Bridge of Dreams by Chaz Brenchley
A Sword from Red Ice by J.V. Jones

[Eldered]

Interesting bit about the fan/author worship/symbiosis gig gyre... So there is a movement within the spec-fic commmunity and literary critic circles which despises the epic?

[Eldered]

Knife of Dreams eh?... "Cough-cough"... "ACK!!"

RJ has completely destroyed all interest I once had in WOT. It's become a lumbering beast that must be stopped! Rename the book Knife of Absolution and end the series now!!

[Eldered]

However, to show sympathy to Martin and Jordan, pulling out a series is a bloody hard, ambitious writing project. Of course, Erikson has restored my faith that there still are authors out there that are capable of such feats (though we're only up to book 5 of Malazan)... I think that RJ and GM have become bogged down and perhaps burnt out. How do you keep the "magic" moving after churning out 5 plus books?.. I also think Tad Williams suffered a burn out with the third Dragonbone Chair book, loved the first two, but the last installment was a letdown, for me anyway.

[gyrehead]

I have to disagree Longhorn. I think the problem with both Jordan and Martin is that very early in their works, they became involved heavily in fan speculation. Its not a fault so much as a human flaw. I cannot imagine writing and getting the reception either of these two authors have. The incredible depth of engagement and commitment by the fans into the very work is staggering. Especially that of WoT. For an ongoing work to recieve that much interest and devotion and sheer involvement is mindboggling. Martin took a very similar approach in writing style and has garnered almost the same level. It has to lead to a bit of over introspection on the part of the author. And from what I have heard come from both men's mouths, each is seriously invested in the ongoing challenge of writer and reader. Both have taken on a healthy and somewhat clever role as literary adversary to those invested in their work.

The problem, as I see it, is that the writer gets bogged down trying to outwit the reader. to keep them guessing as long as possible all the while also keeping them engaged. And then making sure that any reveals match the level of the anticipation that leads up to it. Both Jordan and Martin are raising their own bar in terms of complex plots and they end up tripping over them in the end.

Erikson, on the other hand, was basically able to write in a vacuum compared to Jordan and Martin. His gorwth in terms of fans and fan interrelations has proven to be much slower. There is no explosion the way there was with WoT. In terms of intricacies and complexities, there was nothing even close to what Jordan was putting out. No one else put out a book that had the reader endlessly trying to second guess the writer about each and every character in the book. What was meaninful and what wasn't. Martin then plunks down his first in the series with a different style and setting but very similar modus operandi and enjoys the WoT residuals. Followed by a schism of Reformation proportions.

Erikson and Bakker both entered late enough that the means Jordan and then Martin set about engaging their readers had become commonplace. Most other serial fantasy writers now use the method Jordan, if not introduced, at least refined. So Erikson and Bakker have been slower to be seperated from the herd. Both have a strong and growing fan base. But both are tiny compared to the others.

But in terms of an open weave? I think that is what Jordan has been doing all along once he was given free reign. I think if Jordan had been given an initial book contract of nine (and then ten) books, the apporach in the first three would ahve been quite different. But even from the first book and then in great detail the second, Jordan has managed to create a sense of a vaster production than just what the audience sees in much the way Erikson was able to in greater detail, much earlier, knowing he had a much longer run guaranteed. By the fourth book of WoT, the series ws definitely open in the same way I fell Erikson's work is.
perhaps the one main difference is that WoT's premise does rest on some sort of final confrontation. And to some degree we know the motiviations behind that impending confrontation. With Erikson it has never been as clear to what end most of the stage is working towards. It is interesting in that it was obvious from the first book that both Jordan and Erikson know that ending, even if the journey to get there is a little unclear in the process. Jordan is more traditional in that the confrontation is defined to a much greater degree. It is more traditional in that way. But also I am not sure the genre was ready (at least in terms of a viable financial success) for the oblique approach Erikson is now able to take years later.

Martin though is trying to do something that works for his fans, but just is not working for me. Particularly in his last book. I think the focus of what Martin intended as the reader's journey has changed. He is way too caught up in his game (as is Jordan) to the extent that many of the tangents have become burdensome and the threads are a little too loose. Particularly as he insists on pursuing each one to the frayed and tattered end. Jordan is a little more lax than Martin that regard and it works for me a bit more. Erikson simply shows each thread as it leaves the main body or work and then drops half. And it works as well. Because the reader knows up front how large and complext Erikson wanted his work to be from the start. Its a shame that neither Jordan or Martin were able to go into their works with the security of ten books at the least as Erikson was. Of course Erikson paid when it came time to sell international rights and publishers balked at buying such a large series still basical untested. But hopefully in the long run, Erikson's work will garner him the success Jordan and Martin now enjoy. And not too long a run at that.

Of course this all is moot when ten years from now we are complaining about Erikson's fourteenth book being split after a three year delay.

[gyrehead]

Well despite my disappointment with the last book notwithstanding, I am unhappy with Jordan's firm declaration of the series ending with one more book after my anticipation of the year, Knife of Dreams.

I think if I were to ascribe any lapse in faith in any series it would be Martin. The schaudenfreude I get watching this trainwreck in action almost makes me feel a bit guilty. Oh, the series is not bad. But it is getting there. And in a much more rapid rate than I ever thought possible. I wish that he would be able to capture the basic entertaining quality the first book had but I don't have any great hopes after the third book and a few of the samples put up. Since the book is a small part of my annual budget, it isn't downgraded into the bargain buying category yet. But if this upcoming book turns into yet another A Long List of Names with heavyhanded contrivance, I will be waiting for book five on Bookcloseouts for sure.

[Eldered]

Well CB, that is one helluva long list! Not that I'm ungrateful mind you. You must type what? 95 plus words a minute!! Just finishing up my first keyboarding class..ever... And I ... This is a digression that is not needed I suppose.

What I was getting at was that we'll need some good stuff to read until Feb. or Mar. of '06. So out of that list, it would be nice if people put down a brief synopsis and what they thought about the books they've checked out from the list.
Yea- I am a lazy bastard, with work and school. It doth not help. Cheers and thanks.

[Yellow]

I've always thought Jordan takes himself much too seriously, and as a result he has a kind of god complex when it comes to his plots/characters/general output. Which ties in with the defiant thing. It's as though he's trying to prove his fans wrong. Never a good idea - it leads to the kind of mess that some would argue he's found himself in.

I heard that he gets quite annoyed when people mis-pronounce "Aes Sedai". I mean, really. Get a grip, man.

[gyrehead]

Well the problem with Jordan for me is that i actually liked books seven and eight very much. Yes, they needed some serious editing and probably could have been made one book. But they worked for me. certainly better than the first three of Erikson's books. So I don't think size really has much to do with it. I also really enjoyed Jordan's novella in Legends (the extended novel not so much).

Which raises the issue of Martin. I find his Dunk and Egg work to stand head and shoulders above his best work in the series. So I know he can produce wonderfully tight storytelling. But his last book was incredibly bloated, at least in my opinion.

I think in the case of Jordan and Martin, both are involved in an author-fan relationship that detracts from either truly hunkering down and getting the job done. There is a bit too much self-awareness with both. Erikson doesn't have that problem yet. Which raises his work a bit higher than maybe the actual quality calls for. Not until book four, did he really hit his stride (for me). It will be interesting to see how all three turn out. Same with R. Scott Bakker who is the only other author whose work I immediately buy that has a grand plan that seems to indicate at least eight or nine books.

Though I tend to suspect that most authors have grand visions of book after book after book. But as the new elitism spreads with the disdain for sprawling epics, I think they are afraid to annouce they plan on digging into the world they have created and not coming out until sales or death grab them by the heels. So they say its a trilogy (wink wink) and then their fourth book just happens to pick up a couple of years later (nudge nudge).

[Tiste Simeon]

His Otherland Saga was a lot better anyway...