[Agraba]

This has always irked me a little bit: The Pannion Domin had only one book of air-time, and even then, not very many POVs within it. Lether, however, had 3 books (tBH was a little minor in its part), and so much surrounding it, that we thought it would absolutely dwarf the Domin in terms of the Crippled God's empires.

However, Lether had two thousand bonehunters march against it, and take it down with very few losses (no major character loss... except maybe Beak). Even after the Deus Ex of Beak protecting against the major sorcerous assault, the rest of the way was like taking down bowling pins for the BHs.

The Pannion Domin, on the other hand, had all the Bridgeburners (led by much more of a military genius than Tavore, and with more experienced veterans than the BHs), and all of Caladan Brood's forces. And with all that, they still suffered major losses, and Brood even considered hammering the ground in the face of hopelessness. They only barely managed to overcome the Pannion Domin.

Given that, the CG's Lether army pales in comparison to his Pannion Domin. So how could Lether have so much air-time, and the Domin so little? I just wanted to get this off my chest; it's been bugging me quite a bit. Although I can understand how narration within Lether and the Edur tribes could be easier than within the Pannion Domin, as there's not much sanity within the latter.

[caladanbrood]

Size wise, the Letharii have a much greater superiority of numbers... as for why it took so much more to bring down Pannion... remember the K'ell Hunters he had fighting for him?

[Danyah]

Lether was already crumbeling. Economic breakdown, general backstabbing, the gestapo/stasi/patriottists, no cheap labour forces, the Edur leaving (those in command),...

The Pannion troops were trained soldiers, Undead Kell Hunters, a starving mob, no food to forage and no bars to get pissed.

Obvious no?

[tjc52]

Dont forget that when the Malazans actually went up against the normal Pannion soldiers, they summarily hammered them, with few losses. They we're only outclassed by the KCCM, and by sorcery, those Condors, and the occassional Seerdomin.

[Jason_Taverner]

Undead Kell Hunters

[Kurt Montandon]

Agraba;188758 said:

Given that, the CG's Lether army pales in comparison to his Pannion Domin. So how could Lether have so much air-time, and the Domin so little? I just wanted to get this off my chest; it's been bugging me quite a bit. Although I can understand how narration within Lether and the Edur tribes could be easier than within the Pannion Domin, as there's not much sanity within the latter.

The Domin was only a real threat because of the K'ell Hunters. As well, we're seeing repercussions from the Domin.

On top of that, Pannion was a feint - while Letheras was part of the gambit to control the fragments of Emhurlan, a much more important issue. And I'd imagine the Crippled God knows all about the KCCM hiding out in the east of the Letheras continent - he's in an alliance with them, after all.

Besides which, the Pannion Domin was probably supposed to be more effective than it turned out to be. The issue with Lether took a lot longer in the books, because it lasted a lot longer, at least from the perspective of characters relevant to the story (Trull, namely).

Really, though, we still have no idea what the specific point of controlling either empire was, so we really can't speculate too much on why each would have been important to the Crippled God's overall purpose (beyond making people suffer).

[Obdigore]

Where do you guys who claim that 'CG + KCCM = Fact' come up with this? Page numbers and quotes please.

[BridgeBurner]

Obdigore;189081 said:

Where do you guys who claim that 'CG + KCCM = Fact' come up with this? Page numbers and quotes please.

I was going to ask something similar.

Both CG and KCCM may be related to chaos, but that doesn't necessarily make them allies, certainly not in SE's style.

With some rightly aimed 'order', you can create chaos as well. For example, the KCNR may be order aspected, but if the CG proposes to help them against the KCCM, do you think they would refuse him because he is chaos-aspected?

[Dark Mac]

I think that it's been stated at least once that eliminating chaos is one of the KCNR's goals. In that case, the CG would be as much of an enemy as the KCCM. It's at least as likely that they'll reunite with the KCCM as join with the CG.

[Kater]

I think a big part of the Pannion feint was getting Kallor on board. I see a lot of the CG's moves as beachheads, looking to establish a place where he can make further moves from and any benefits that derive from those excursions - WJ dying demoralised the Malazans and their allies a lot for instance, Rhulad's taking of the sword led it into the hands of Karsa etc

I do agree though that the Pannion Domin seems to have been a false start for SE from a storyline pov, so much was built up about this threat that Rake, Brood, the Malazan army, Bridgeburnes and a whole host of others were needed to fight it and then it barely warrants a mention afterward. I guess maybe he needed a big fight for WJ to die in.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Pannion Domin was not a lasting threat - it was like a massive gun with one bullet. All it could do was expand while the centre died, and once its power was broken then it ceased to exist - because it was nothing but the fleeing cannibal horde and the army behind them. The conquered lands were simply destroyed, the place had no future. That's why its never been relevant again.

I think of the Pannion Domin as the CG's play on Genebackis to weaken the Malazan Empire (I think it is safe to say the Malazan invasion was older than the Domin.) It may even have succeeded in one of its aims - it effectively removed the Malazan's most important army from play, Onearm's Host.

It's harder to read the CG's involvement in the events on Seven Cities - the Whirlwind rebellion was not under his control, and it's not clear who Mallick Rel serves. But you can also see the CG's takeover of Lether as another element in the war against the Malazans, since it eventually led to Tavore's defection and her actions in RG.

[Danyah]

Well, the CG does not seem to strive for dominion, only for destruction. The fact that he had Poliel cleanse 7C. Causing civil war in lether by first having the Edur conquer the humans and then abandoning them. At a certain point the K'risnan and the warlocks weren't able to draw upon chaos anymore. The selfdestructive cannibals of Genabackis weren't striving for a constructive nation either. Maybe he just hopes for the destruction of all the realms, so that he too will die, being fed up with the chaining and the deformations...

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;189444 said:

It's harder to read the CG's involvement in the events on Seven Cities - the Whirlwind rebellion was not under his control, and it's not clear who Mallick Rel serves. But you can also see the CG's takeover of Lether as another element in the war against the Malazans, since it eventually led to Tavore's defection and her actions in RG.

The Crippled God's manipulations in Seven Cities was originally oriented at claiming that large chunk of KE that sat on Raraku. I suspect that his getting involved in Letheras was of similar aim, namely controlling the Edur and thereby getting ahold of more pieces of KE, to use as his own warren.

I don't think the Crippled God cares specifically about the Malazan Empire , except as just another bunch of mortals to be made to suffer, or as another group of players to be manipulated to more important ends.

[tiam]

Kater;189439 said:

I think a big part of the Pannion feint was getting Kallor on board. I see a lot of the CG's moves as beachheads, looking to establish a place where he can make further moves from and any benefits that derive from those excursions - WJ dying demoralised the Malazans and their allies a lot for instance, Rhulad's taking of the sword led it into the hands of Karsa etc

I do agree though that the Pannion Domin seems to have been a false start for SE from a storyline pov, so much was built up about this threat that Rake, Brood, the Malazan army, Bridgeburnes and a whole host of others were needed to fight it and then it barely warrants a mention afterward. I guess maybe he needed a big fight for WJ to die in.

I would have thought that making an empire on Genabackis just to gain Kallor is a bit of a stretch.

A better option seems to be forcing Broods hand by turning the warrens and poisoning burn. This would have unleashed utter choas and have given the CG the wholesale destruction he wanted