[Glass]

Brian and Kevin took the thousands of notes Frank compiled over his Dune life, took the completed outline Frank had made for Dune 7, and started writing. It's that simple. They knew where Frank was going, they knew the twists and turns, and what needed to be accomplished. They then wove in new material to match up further with the books already in existence as well as interwove into that bits and tidbits of the notes. In effect, they wrote Frank's book for him.

The prose isn't going to be the same. As I've already established, there will never be another Frank Herbert. He was a veritable genius when it comes to the written word and no one will have that ability ever again. That being said, the story was left cliffhanging. Imagine Steve cliffhanging Dust of Dreams, leaving his notes and outline, and then dying (God forbid). Thousands of fans would be hung out to dry, crying undoubtedly about not knowing about the last book's climax (and at Steve's death, I would hope). Then let's take ICE, who is still alive and who knows Malazan better than anyone else. Would you want him to write it? I think your answer will be yes.

That's what Brian and Kevin did. Frank and Brian cowrote a book or two and they obviously knew one another intimately after Brian got into his adulthood. No one alive knows Dune better than Brian. And Kevin was an enormous fan as well, Dune the book that drove him to become a science fiction writer. They had the notes, they had the outline, and they had the knowledge.

But because their writing isn't Frank's prose, people crap all over it. I think that is supremely sad rationale. No one is Frank Herbert. No one. To believe anyone could ever write the last Dune book and bring the storyline to a climax as well as Frank is kidding themselves.

Again, people focusing on the negative rather than looking at things objectively.

As for your "established" norm, those are simply two of the more notorious instances. I say Christopher Tolkien is the biggest hack of all, not bringing anything new into the world just to make money. Children of Hurin isn't new at all -- it's just been repackaged from parts of the story published everywhere in the last thirty years with a little bit of effort on Christopher's part.

In the part of Adams, his wife took that final manuscript, got it cleaned up, and published. Does the Adams family have anyone who is intimate with the work who is also a writer? I doubt it. Even if they did, was Adams the kind of writer who outlines? Again, I doubt it from reading his books. So comparing the "norm," two writers who didn't leave outlines behind (to our knowledge) to writers who died who did leave outlines behind is kind of a moot point, wouldn't you agree? There is more than your "norm" out there, let's put it that way (how can anything be a norm and only have two instances, by the way?).

[paladin]

i was mentioning the most prominent cases in sf/fantasy. other than whats happened to the dune universe, what other major novels in the genre have had this? i havent seen any. wheel of time might be next, but it hasnt happened yet.

[Tif the Barber Boy]

paladin;186336 said:

i was mentioning the most prominent cases in sf/fantasy. other than whats happened to the dune universe, what other major novels in the genre have had this? i havent seen any. wheel of time might be next, but it hasnt happened yet.

There were all those Foundation books I recall (Foundation and Chaos by Greg Bear, etc.) and there have been new books based on Roger Zelazny's Amber series.

I believe in both cases both authors did have plans to write more books in those series.

[Glass]

Those are the two more classic contexts, yup. I know A. E. van Vogt Slan Hunter -- of which A.E. had written 1/3 of the book and had an outline -- has now been finished by KJ Anderson and will soon be released. That's another one where the outline was done, the author had begun work on the sequel, and died while writing.

And we have yet to see what happens with Gemmel. I believe he was in the middle of writing -- literally -- when he sadly died after complications with a heart procedure.

It truly is a sad part of the business, but the best way for the dead writer to live on and gain new audiences is for this to happen every once in a while. I can't tell you how many Dune fans have come to the Dune saga because of Brian and Kevin. I managed one of the largest B&N's in the country, and Dune sales (as well as the other books by Frank) have been threw the roof as of late. All because of the added exposure of what Brian and Kevin are doing.

Just remember: There are positives to all of this. Don't just embrace the negative to be negative.

[paladin]

Well, I know that it sells, otherwise they wouldn't have continued making books after chapterhouse books and butlerian jihad and such.. but then again, so does WoT sell, and WoT has been like pulling teeth for about the last 10 books.

i think its nice that they do this, but i just dont agree with they way they do.. thats all

[Zanth13]

Wow... I didn’t even know David Gemmell had died... that’s crazy... guess I am out of touch with reality he died in 2006 also damn... I know one of my favorite authors Gordon R. Dickson had died back in 2001.

Would any one mind if I proposed a Dead authors thread somewhere so people can be kept informed>>
Just somewhere the latest can be posted as well as what will happen with there worlds ect ect.

As well as maybe a list of good authors deceased in maybe the last 10 years or something.


Sadly not even Anne McCaffrely can live forever.:eek:

[Morgoth]

@Glass - yes, it's impossible to write dune follow ups on par with the original. However, that does not change the fact that Kevin J. Anderson's writing is godawfull. That he helps write dune books just makes it even worse.

[Yellow]

longhorn;182170 said:

Sir Thursday said:

I've only read some of the Saga of Seven Suns...but I didn't think it was THAT bad...the first couple of books anyway. Starts to drag as you get into the third page of book one.

Fixed for accuracy.

Quoted for truth.

[Zanth13]

and im getting sick of glass calling people bitches ...fuck you dude... find a way to express you opinion without being such a ummm for lack of a better word b!tch

[Werthead]

Are there writers of the same calibre as Frank Herbert still alive? Sure. Scott Bakker has a very similar prose style to Herbert. If he'd published his trilogy ten years earlier and come to prominence, maybe he could have done these Dune books justice. Probably not though, as he has his own stories he wants to write.

Kevin J. Anderson is a poor dictator (he doesn't write, he dictates onto DATs and some minion types his blather out for him). His Star Wars novels are rubbish. His X-Files novels are better, but still poor. Resurrection Inc. is ambitious, but derailed by a weak prose style. Climbing Olympus is okay but nothing special. Why Brian Herbert agreed for him to work on this trilogy, I don't know, save that Anderson's high output rate would allow the cow to be thoroughly milked year-in, year-out, every year for at least eleven years and thus Brian would be able to afford his new conservatory.

The story of how Brian and Kevin found the working notes for Dune 7 is well-told. That story also states that they found those notes only after planning the Legends and Preludes trilogies. Dune 7 may broadly be what Frank Herbert intended, but none of the elements from the Legends and Preludes trilogies that are there were supposed to be in it (the 'Enemy' being thinking machines was probably Herbert Snr's intention all along though). So, in that sense, what we are getting is Frank Herbert's vision filtered through the fan fiction that KJA has conjured up. This is not the book Frank Herbert would have written even if the prose styles were identical.

Quote

I say Christopher Tolkien is the biggest hack of all, not bringing anything new into the world just to make money. Children of Hurin isn't new at all -- it's just been repackaged from parts of the story published everywhere in the last thirty years with a little bit of effort on Christopher's part.

Children of Hurin is an interesting case. It is not aimed at the Tolkien completists and obsessives who have poured over The Silmarillion, The History of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales for the past thirty years. It is aimed, in Christopher Tolkien's intent (and this was JRRT's as well for his three 'Great Tales'), at the mass-audience who enjoy The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings but have been scared off from The Silmarillion by its status as a 'difficult' book. Naturally, HarperCollins didn't really mention this in their marketing. To anyone who already has Unfinished Tales, The Children of Hurin is probably not worth it (75% of the story appears in the earlier book), save for the wonderful Alan Lee illustrations. That's a failure of the publisher, not the editor.

CT has always shown the greatest respect and fidelity to his father's work. He has never backed down from saying that the books he has published contain early drafts and incomplete fragments with some editorial commentary. He has never pretended they were novels or completed works in themselves. As a result, those books have sold a miniscule fraction of what the 'proper' JRRT books have sold. If CT were truly a hack, he would simply sit back and wait for the cash to roll in from royalty payments (50 million copies of Lord of the Rings have been sold since 2000) which, as Tolkien's literary heir and executor, go straight to him, rather than spending 23 years of effort working on the 'History' series and other books.

David Gemmell's wife is completing the final Troy book. This is a book which David Gemmell had himself finished about 50% of and had completed a very detailed outline for the remaining chapters. He talked to his wife at length about every book he wrote; she was his editor and first reader as well, and helped research the Troy series. This should ensure that the final book is as close as possible to what Gemmell intended, even if the prose is not quite the same. This is not the same as shoehorning your own ideas into an existing outline with no respect for the author's original intentions (see: KJA).

Robert Jordan's situation is unknown. I believe the plan is to publish what he's completed so far and then the outline of the remainder of the story rather than have his wife Harriett - who is his editor - attempt to complete the book. However, RJ's health seems stable at the moment and it looks reasonably hopeful that he will complete the book himself.

[Glass]

xanth13;186768 said:

and im getting sick of glass calling people bitches ...fuck you dude... find a way to express you opinion without being such a ummm for lack of a better word b!tch

I call a Spade a Spade, Xanth. I always have. This is one forum where negativity runs rampant, where nothing is ever good enough for anyone. It's quite sad. And people all over the internet know that -- I've heard it numerous times before even coming here. To even get acknowledged on such a board, one must use over the top language. Otherwise it just gets lost in the normal, every day shuffle of negativity.

I think people here need to start being critical thinkers on their own and not make a single post until they are informed and have thought all the way through a topic. But as is the case with most online forums that lack any consequences, people here bitch and vent and spew their tyranical thoughts as though they are gospel. And as soon as I step in and give another perspective I get shat on for it. Well, that is sincerely too bad. Because Forums are about communication and enjoyment, not dominance.

In effect, if you don't like my posts, you should take a good long look at yourselves and see what I am talking about. Because in making the posts you are being so critical of, I am being you. And if you hate my posts, that really means you hate yourself. Analyze that.

As for Christopher Tolkien, he increased the money in his bank account by releasing drafts and outlines. Nothing more. The publisher didn't market these as drafts and outlines. They put an Alan Lee cover on them, called them the Lost Tales, and mass produced them. They knew they had a winner because Tolkien people would eat it up, and eat it up they did. CT made a buck off his father's notes, plain and simple. No writer would ever condone such a release of their materials in life. Why would they condone it in death? CT is my opinion is the worst hack of all; a man who because he can organize notes and drafts and backstory he all of a sudden can make a dollar bill enter his account. Pitiful.

[caladanbrood]

Glass;186934 said:

I call a Spade a Spade, Xanth. I always have. This is one forum where negativity runs rampant, where nothing is ever good enough for anyone. It's quite sad. And people all over the internet know that -- I've heard it numerous times before even coming here. To even get acknowledged on such a board, one must use over the top language. Otherwise it just gets lost in the normal, every day shuffle of negativity.

Dude, calm down. Just because we disagreed with you about the Bonehunters cover does not mean we're negative about everything. As it happens, yes, we do have very high standards, because it's an Erikson fansite - virtually no one can live up to that kind of expectation, so there are often dissapointments.
People don't deserve praise for simply trying to do something, like keeping the Dune legacy going, they deserve praise for doing so well, and shining more glory on what was a magnificent series. Which Brian and Kevin have failed to do. That's not "being negetive for the sake of negetivity", that's just what we all think, after having read the books and making a considered opinion about it. Why can't you accept that views contrary to your own can't sometimes be valid?

[Morgoth]

Glass;186934 said:

I call a Spade a Spade, Xanth. I always have. This is one forum where negativity runs rampant, where nothing is ever good enough for anyone. It's quite sad. And people all over the internet know that -- I've heard it numerous times before even coming here. To even get acknowledged on such a board, one must use over the top language. Otherwise it just gets lost in the normal, every day shuffle of negativity.

I think people here need to start being critical thinkers on their own and not make a single post until they are informed and have thought all the way through a topic. But as is the case with most online forums that lack any consequences, people here bitch and vent and spew their tyranical thoughts as though they are gospel. And as soon as I step in and give another perspective I get shat on for it. Well, that is sincerely too bad. Because Forums are about communication and enjoyment, not dominance.

In effect, if you don't like my posts, you should take a good long look at yourselves and see what I am talking about. Because in making the posts you are being so critical of, I am being you. And if you hate my posts, that really means you hate yourself. Analyze that.

As for Christopher Tolkien, he increased the money in his bank account by releasing drafts and outlines. Nothing more. The publisher didn't market these as drafts and outlines. They put an Alan Lee cover on them, called them the Lost Tales, and mass produced them. They knew they had a winner because Tolkien people would eat it up, and eat it up they did. CT made a buck off his father's notes, plain and simple. No writer would ever condone such a release of their materials in life. Why would they condone it in death? CT is my opinion is the worst hack of all; a man who because he can organize notes and drafts and backstory he all of a sudden can make a dollar bill enter his account. Pitiful.

Have you read the newer dune books? The writing is atrocious. there's no way of getting around that.

[Glass]

Quote

People don't deserve praise for simply trying to do something, like keeping the Dune legacy going, they deserve praise for doing so well, and shining more glory on what was a magnificent series.

But this isn't what goes on here, Brood. Not on this website. If you go into any thread the amount of people tearing down the establishment vastly outweights those who are holding it up. It's the whole, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all" proverb, but this place acts like Bizarro world where that proverb is flipped on its head and twisted to its opposite.

You and I are in agreement, but you don't understand what I am saying. What you just said is novels deserve praise if they are good. I agree with that. But what you and I disagree about -- and this wasn't part of your post sadly -- is rather than giving praise for what is done correctly the people on this board automatically shift to the negative aspect of everything. People virtually rush to post their negative thoughts rather than saying anything constructive. And if they do post something constructive, it is a single line amidst the negativity.

Hell, you even make threads devoted to negative reading experiences and call it book burning. How fascist is that? What does that tell you? What does such a thread do for people? It is merely an animalistic outlet. It offers nothing good for the community. It offers nothing good for the world. And yet every single one of those authors are responsible for getting someone to read, getting someone interested in books. They have touched people's lives and those books are important. Those writers are important. In your quote you said people deserve praise for doing something well: did not those writers do something well by getting people to read? Did not the Dune prequels get a whole new generation to read Dune by Frank Herbert? Do you not see the difference between being positive and beging negative?

If you go to other Forums out there, many of them hold a lot more respect for people than most of the people do here. A lot of people hate Gardens of the Moon[/b], but they rarely post this. There are better things to write about and talk about than hating everything.

Mostly, what it is here, is some imagined elitist snobbery that pervades the readership here. As if you are part of something greater than the rest. haha So sad.

About the US Bonehunters cover thread, I went into that thread shocked at what people were saying. Mostly I was shocked at how twisted and wrong people were about the events leading up to that cover's inception. I set people aright about it, and when no one listened I grew angry. They wanted to blame someone but they weren't casting their blame at the right people. Even now, as I've brought the truth of the matter to light, people are still pointing fingers at Todd Lockwood for picking the scene when it was STEVE who picked the scene. What does that tell you about the negative idiocy on this board? A bunch of lemmings.

Bah, I'm done with this Forum. It's really a shame because I see a multi-cultural amalgamation of intelligent people here -- but they don't know how to be good, courteous people.

Here's my final question for this board: If you were around someone as negative in real life, would you hang out with that person and call them friend?

I'll let you answer it yourself.

[Illuyankas]

Glass, on really;186934, said:

I am an idiot, Xanth. I always have been. This is one forum where people hold views different to my own, where things I like are disliked by others, and this is bad somehow. It's quite sad. And people all over the internet know that people's opinions can differ -- I've heard it numerous times before even coming here, I just haven't paid attention. To even get acknowledged on such a board, one must use over the top language deriding their decisions and taste and speaking down to them as if they had barely enough intelligence to operate a computer let alone comment on anything literary. Otherwise it just gets lost in the normal, every day shuffle of normal forum activity.

I think people here need to stop being critical thinkers on their own and not make a single post until they are agreeing with me and have spammed their viewpoint all the way through a topic, using profanity to 'stand out from the crowd' as if the majority of the board members were witless fools. But as is the case with most online forums that lack any consequences, people here post their opinions on all manner of subjects, commenting on whether they find it appealing and making constructive critism and yes, occasionally mocking it if it doesn't match their own personal standards, or what they believe the standards to be, as is their right. And as soon as I step in and attack everyone disagreeing with me with childish insults and petty smears I get shat on for it, and rightly so. Well, that is sincerely too bad for me. Because Forums are about communication and enjoyment, not trolling.

In effect, if you don't like my posts, you should pat yourselves on the back because you have taste. Because in making the posts you are being so critical of, I am being an aggravating fuckwit. And if you hate my posts, that really means you're annoyed at being treated like a fool for posting your own opinions. Analyze that.

As for Christopher Tolkien, [long hypocritical paragraph bitching about how CT has done exactly the same as Anderson and Brian Herbert, only without the subpar fanfiction additions]. Pitiful.

See? I can be a childish, pretentious, self-absorbed, condescending cunt too!

EDIT: Having read your latest post, I'm even more offended. Apart from pandering to exactly what you think this entire site is about, yes - I have met the very people you continually whine about in real life, and I consider them friends. I'd meet them again and go drinking in their company. Which is more than I can say for you.

[caladanbrood]

Glass;186941 said:

But this isn't what goes on here, Brood. Not on this website. If you go into any thread the amount of people tearing down the establishment vastly outweights those who are holding it up. It's the whole, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all" proverb, but this place acts like Bizarro world where that proverb is flipped on its head and twisted to its opposite.

Then you obviously read the wrong threads:( Take a wander through this Other Fantasy forum, and read some of the threads about The Dresden series, Scott Lynch, Joe Abercrombie, Richard Morgan, Patrick Rothfuss etc. Of course, even in those, you'll get discussion of their weaknesses, but what do you want us to do? Ignore any flaws an author (including Erikson) has just so there's a more positive atmosphere? We're here to learn more about books by discussing both their positive and negetive aspects with other people, not to sing the praises of people simply because they managed to get themselves published.

As for the Bonehunters thread, you seem to have been mis-reading the responses, if that's what you think. Personally, if you're telling the truth, yes, I blame Erikson for choosing the wrong scene and fucking up his descriptions. This is what you seem to be trying to get anyone to say, so happy now, or is that too negetive as well?
Except of course, Erikson is u happy with the cover too... hmm, that might suggest that Todd messed up too. Ooh, the intrigue!

You said you were "done with us" last week too - don't make us lose all repsect for you by lying again.

[Wiggles]

Glass;186934 said:

I call a Spade a Spade, Xanth. I always have. This is one forum where negativity runs rampant, where nothing is ever good enough for anyone. It's quite sad. And people all over the internet know that -- I've heard it numerous times before even coming here. To even get acknowledged on such a board, one must use over the top language. Otherwise it just gets lost in the normal, every day shuffle of negativity.

I think people here need to start being critical thinkers on their own and not make a single post until they are informed and have thought all the way through a topic. But as is the case with most online forums that lack any consequences, people here bitch and vent and spew their tyranical thoughts as though they are gospel. And as soon as I step in and give another perspective I get shat on for it. Well, that is sincerely too bad. Because Forums are about communication and enjoyment, not dominance.

In effect, if you don't like my posts, you should take a good long look at yourselves and see what I am talking about. Because in making the posts you are being so critical of, I am being you. And if you hate my posts, that really means you hate yourself. Analyze that.

As for Christopher Tolkien, he increased the money in his bank account by releasing drafts and outlines. Nothing more. The publisher didn't market these as drafts and outlines. They put an Alan Lee cover on them, called them the Lost Tales, and mass produced them. They knew they had a winner because Tolkien people would eat it up, and eat it up they did. CT made a buck off his father's notes, plain and simple. No writer would ever condone such a release of their materials in life. Why would they condone it in death? CT is my opinion is the worst hack of all; a man who because he can organize notes and drafts and backstory he all of a sudden can make a dollar bill enter his account. Pitiful.

and

Glass;186941 said:

But this isn't what goes on here, Brood. Not on this website. If you go into any thread the amount of people tearing down the establishment vastly outweights those who are holding it up. It's the whole, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all" proverb, but this place acts like Bizarro world where that proverb is flipped on its head and twisted to its opposite.

You and I are in agreement, but you don't understand what I am saying. What you just said is novels deserve praise if they are good. I agree with that. But what you and I disagree about -- and this wasn't part of your post sadly -- is rather than giving praise for what is done correctly the people on this board automatically shift to the negative aspect of everything. People virtually rush to post their negative thoughts rather than saying anything constructive. And if they do post something constructive, it is a single line amidst the negativity.

Hell, you even make threads devoted to negative reading experiences and call it book burning. How fascist is that? What does that tell you? What does such a thread do for people? It is merely an animalistic outlet. It offers nothing good for the community. It offers nothing good for the world. And yet every single one of those authors are responsible for getting someone to read, getting someone interested in books. They have touched people's lives and those books are important. Those writers are important. In your quote you said people deserve praise for doing something well: did not those writers do something well by getting people to read? Did not the Dune prequels get a whole new generation to read Dune by Frank Herbert? Do you not see the difference between being positive and beging negative?

If you go to other Forums out there, many of them hold a lot more respect for people than most of the people do here. A lot of people hate Gardens of the Moon[/b], but they rarely post this. There are better things to write about and talk about than hating everything.

Mostly, what it is here, is some imagined elitist snobbery that pervades the readership here. As if you are part of something greater than the rest. haha So sad.

About the US Bonehunters cover thread, I went into that thread shocked at what people were saying. Mostly I was shocked at how twisted and wrong people were about the events leading up to that cover's inception. I set people aright about it, and when no one listened I grew angry. They wanted to blame someone but they weren't casting their blame at the right people. Even now, as I've brought the truth of the matter to light, people are still pointing fingers at Todd Lockwood for picking the scene when it was STEVE who picked the scene. What does that tell you about the negative idiocy on this board? A bunch of lemmings.

Bah, I'm done with this Forum. It's really a shame because I see a multi-cultural amalgamation of intelligent people here -- but they don't know how to be good, courteous people.

Here's my final question for this board: If you were around someone as negative in real life, would you hang out with that person and call them friend?

I'll let you answer it yourself.

Please. Dont leave. as Malacunt would say "you're not boring", even if you were dead wrong about your last point.

so, thank you, and stay. I loves you now.

[Werthead]

Quote

As for Christopher Tolkien, he increased the money in his bank account by releasing drafts and outlines. Nothing more. The publisher didn't market these as drafts and outlines. They put an Alan Lee cover on them, called them the Lost Tales, and mass produced them. They knew they had a winner because Tolkien people would eat it up, and eat it up they did. CT made a buck off his father's notes, plain and simple. No writer would ever condone such a release of their materials in life. Why would they condone it in death? CT is my opinion is the worst hack of all; a man who because he can organize notes and drafts and backstory he all of a sudden can make a dollar bill enter his account. Pitiful.

JRR Tolkien gave permission for his notes to be made available after he died. He and Christopher worked together on editing The Silmarillion up to JRRT's death, and JRRT left detailed instructions on how the book should be organised. He gave his papers and notes to an American university as he wanted them studied. He told fans, repeatedly, he wanted his notes made available after he died because he wanted people to debate and discuss his work. CT has merely been carrying out that wish.

Your argument is, essentially, that Christopher Tolkien is a hack because he spent 23 years of his life going through his father's work, transcribing and analysing it and then releasing it as his father wished in return for a relatively small sum of money when he could have instead sat on his backside, done nothing, and lived off the tens of millions of pounds that The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit would have made him instead? That doesn't make any sense.

[Folken]

Relax with the flamming. Anyways Glass seems to have left so I dunno we can all get back to our ...bitching

Oh and glass if you do read this again, I suggest you go ahead and read the entire Bonehunters cover thread. You'll notice a lot of us have said the painting is awesome and Todd is a good artist. We just dont like it as a cover as it doesnt convey the malazan feel...though you'll probably read that as "we hate todd and he can't draw" lol anyways....continue...I'll get it going again

Anderson is a godawful hack:p

[amphibian]

Glass;186934 said:

I call a Spade a Spade, Xanth. I always have.

I ain't sure how informed you are of pejoratives and slang, but the word "spade" is also used to refer to black people in a negative manner. It's actually offensive in most cases to say "spade" in public, unless it is explicitly clear you are referring to the digging implement.

A better phrase would be "I call them like I see them."

Glass;186941 said:

But this isn't what goes on here, Brood. Not on this website. If you go into any thread the amount of people tearing down the establishment vastly outweights those who are holding it up. It's the whole, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all" proverb, but this place acts like Bizarro world where that proverb is flipped on its head and twisted to its opposite.

Actually, there is something wrong with the current establishment in media today: too often quality is passed over in favor of the current "hot thing". The publishing world is undergoing a crisis prompted both by the Internet and by consistently poor decisions over the years about which books to pick up and how to push them. Remember Wonkette or Washintonienne? Both got large advances and plenty of publicity - only to spectacularly fail at moving units.

Tor specifically has this weird schizoid thing of giving us endless stuff akin to crappy fan fiction, unedited Robert Jordan and Goodkind "works" and at the same time, publishing Vandermeer, Wolfe and Erikson - who are pretty much universally recognized as being at the very top in terms of ability and quality in their field. But Tor doesn't promote Wolfe. Tor didn't give Erikson a chance to get the cover he wanted. Zindell's covers are awful.

One maxim for a successful business is that putting out quality product will not only cause people to buy it, but respect the business as well. This will allow the near-paradox of keeping one's integrity as well as turning a profit. I do recognize that Jordan and Goodkind are bestsellers, but can you honestly tell me that Tor can't do a better job? Martin is a perennial bestseller, Stephenson's Baroque Cycle sold like crazy and Erikson just hit the bestseller list with Reaper's Gale.

Quote

A lot of people hate Gardens of the Moon[/b], but they rarely post this.

Actually, pretty much everyone agrees that Gardens of the Moon is Erikson's weakest book. Even Erikson. But it isn't bad for a first novel and the quality of writing went UP for Deadhouse Gates. I believe there's multiple threads with multiple posts agreeing about GotM being not-so-good on this forum alone.