[Cold Iron]

Dolorous Menhir said:

It seems to boil down to "religion is really important to the world and I find it interesting, so there must be a god".

...And I thought I was being pretty eloquent. You're the third person today to badly try to summarise my argument. So I guess I'll have to do it for you. This is what it boils down to:

I believe in something. I call it god. It does all the things that god does but in unconventional ways that need not draw on supernatural phenomena. It doesn't have a beard.

potsherds said:

I think the only reason Cold Iron isn't a Chrstian or Muslim or Jew is some possible issues he has with the rigidity of their ideas, and possible prejudices against them. I've never completely understood his ideas. They're fuzzy, ill-defined, and so broad in scope, 'god' can be anything and everything. It's a meanigless term.

I think what you said in the other thread is rather true. Having his cake and eating it too. I've told him many times that his beliefs are idealistic, not realistic. They don't make a whole lot of sense to me. They're harmless ideas though, so I'm not so worried about the non-sensical aspects.

Thanks for the stamp of harmlessness, pots, glad theres something about me you're not worried about. That said, the reason im not a christian muslim or jew is because i dont ascibe to their principles. Of course the definition of god is fuzzy, thats not my fault, and doesn't render it meaningless, beliefs are always idealistic, what is the point of a realistic belief? Scientific atheism is idealistic too. If they don't make sense to you, I'll gladly clarify.

[Darkwatch]

@ CI and Pots
No antagonising (It's not that you're doing it now, but you guys are walking close to it), save it for the flirting thread.

[Cold Iron]

potsherds;178637 said:

:angel: You should see some of our MSN conversations. I'm being very civil. I don't know why he ever put up for it as long as he did.

I'm sorry, CI. But even getting up at 3 in the morning and talking for hours, I was forced to wait 10 and 15 minutes between your excruciatingly thought-out IM's, We didn?t get very far, really. And you're summary is still in agreement with mine, as far as I can see. I obviously don't understand what the difference is. I'm sorry you?re upset by this. You really aren't making yourself clear, if you insist that there's a difference between what you are saying your beliefs are, and what I am saying they are.

I agreed with Chopra when I was about 14, I think I generally understand his ideas.

We didn't get very far because you couldn't let go of your idea that god has to be some personified entity and any abstract definition can't have that name. The summary i was referring to was dm's, check edit, and im not upset at all, im trying to make myself as clear as possible without writing a dissertation. And forget Chopra, I read one of his books about success, if what i'm saying is similar to his ideas thats great, more credibility to me, but don't be condescending. If your saying your 14yo self would be agreeing with me, then what has changed?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Brynjar;178526 said:

I find the belief in God personally pointless. I don't see how me believing in a supernatural being could benifit me in any way. Simple and boring atheist.

As apparent from my last post, I'm pretty fixed into the Durkheiman school: God (to speak only of the abrahamic beliefs) is a culmination of desirable values held in in any given community, worshipped to reaffirm these values and to strengthen the bond between the individuals of that community (simply put). Comfort or ploy? Well, both, and a lot more.


Shame that you, as a subject, can't make any decision completely based on objective reasoning.

It seems like we are at the same conclusion via different routes. Do you mean I can't make objective decisions because I rely on subjective inputs? I suppose if I were to concede that point then we would immediately be in "you can never know anything really" territory.

Cold Iron, here's a suggestion. Complete this sentence:

"God is..."

or

"My concept of God is..."

as concisely as possible. Go on to why you believe or follow this definition after, but set it down clearly first. That should help with all these poor summaries we are making of your ideas.

[stone monkey]

It's a wishy-washy argument because in that case you've what actually done is decide how you want to behave (or what you feel is right) and then decided that its your God that's told you this. You want to do something (say persecute homosexuals, for example) and you validate this by saying that its God that says you should. To my mind this is very wishy-washy as the believer is not taking personal responsibility for their own ethical code.

ps. Belief in God may very well be an integral part of being human, but if that is the case then I suggest that it's analogous to the way murder and rape are a part of what it is to be human. Just because people have a tendancy to do a thing doesn't necessarily imply that that thing is at all sensible or good.

[Cold Iron]

Dolorous Menhir;178650 said:

Cold Iron, here's a suggestion. Complete this sentence:

"God is..."

or

"My concept of God is..."

as concisely as possible. Go on to why you believe or follow this definition after, but set it down clearly first. That should help with all these poor summaries we are making of your ideas.

I thought my first post was enough in this regard. I'm talking about the god of miracles that you referred to, answers prayers, punishes sins etc. but not an intelligent entity somewhere who does magic, but a kind of infinite and incomprehendable collection of accountability, positive thinking, empowerment, self-correction, evolutionary instincts, subconscious mind, inner-self, fuzzy-logic, neural association, living interaction, web-of-life, causality, memory, learning, natural laws, decisions, relationships, desires...

I'll try again.

God is life.

[stone monkey]

So your actual answer is, "I don't know"

If you'd just said that in the first place, dude...

[Cold Iron]

I know what I know. It's hard to explain but i'm not confused at all

Fine, it's wishy-washy. But I understand it. Like I said to pots, if it doesn't make sense, ask me a question and I'll clarify.

Besides, I think it's time for someone else to have a go.

[stone monkey]

No one knows what they know.
Infinite regress, you see.
They just think they do.

[Darkwatch]

I'm going to try and give my interpretation of CI's god concept.

God is essentialy the animating principle of the universe, its soul, the universal spirit. As such everything is a fragmented piece of it. Whether it be material or abstract. All beings, concepts and forces would be dynamics of its existence.
But since it is fragmented it does not possess a sentient consciousness.

Thus god is everything and everywhere.

[Darkwatch]

Ok, but is it clearer now?

Also:
I just hope your annoyance won't shine through.

[Cold Iron]

No pots, what you said was:

potsherds said:

I've never completely understood his ideas. They're fuzzy, ill-defined, and so broad in scope, 'god' can be anything and everything. It's a meanigless term.

That's not "basically" what dw said, its not even remotely similar.

As to its accuracy... Umm... The biggest correction I would make is that its not exactly fragmented because everything effects everything else but it has no sentient consciousness because consciousness is a brain function that has nothing to do with it.

[stone monkey]

I'd disagree with your consiousness point. Consciousness would have everything to do with it because only consciousness could recognise that this "animating principle" might exist. Without consciousness it might as well not be there, there's noone to notice it.

Of course...It just might as well not be there.

[Cold Iron]

? If i throw a rock at you, the rock doesn't know it's been thrown, but it still hurts when it hits you in the head.

[stone monkey]

Instead of discussing the real issues I raised, the haters argue semantics

Hmm. I wonder who said that in the past...?

[Cold Iron]

? I'm saying consciousness is irrelevant. A universe without brains would still have this kind of god. Even possibly a universe without life, but that would be a little different.