[SiriusL]

I was reading DHG last night, and I got to thinking about the Path of Hands, the Soletaken, and the Beast Hold. IIRC, in MoI it's revealed that the Beast Hold is the spiritworld of the T'lan Imass. In DHG, we see that the soletaken ritual that engulfed the First Empire was put to a bloody end by T'lan Imass. Heboric mentioned a long, mysterious kinship between the Imass and soletaken, and Sormo speculates as such:

Quote

Heboric: 'There is a bond between the T'lan Imass and Soletaken and D'ivers, a mysterious kinship that was unsuspected by the dwellers of this city - though they claimed for themselves the proud title of First Empire.'(DG, UK MMPB, p.517)


'Is there a blending between shapeshifting and Elder Tellann? Unknown. Perhaps the D'ivers and Soletaken are simply passing through the warren - imagining it unoccupied by T'lan Imass and therefore safer. Indeed, no T'lan Imass to take umbrage with the trespass, leaving them with only each other to battle.' (DG, UK MMPB, p.183)

Finally, at the end of DHG, we see Olar Ethil--the first Soletaken--flying away from Pust's keep, the keep that apparently held the true gateway to ascension among Soletaken/D'ivers.

OK, so I'm trying to reason this out...

If a Soletaken or D'ivers did find the gate and found ascension, would that being have some control over the Beast Hold? Does control over the Beast Hold imply control over the T'lan Imass?

This would explain why Shadowthrone had a hand in these matters--he doesn't want to give up the control of the T'lan Imass that he gained through the First Throne. Now that T&G have ascended to the Beast Throne, are the T'lan Imass safe from that particular threat of domination?

[caladanbrood]

Well, surely if it was the case that control of the Beast Hold meant control of the Imass, they would by now be under the thrall of Togg and Fanderay, which they're not, as far as we know. I think it's solely the first throne that denotes any measure of control over them.

However, we don't know where the magic behind the soletaken shape-shifting is coming from - it's not the user's own warrens, because it's not only mages who can shape-shift - so it's entirely possible it's from the Beast Hold and its warren, I suppose.

[SiriusL]

caladanbrood;175924 said:

Well, surely if it was the case that control of the Beast Hold meant control of the Imass, they would by now be under the thrall of Togg and Fanderay, which they're not, as far as we know. I think it's solely the first throne that denotes any measure of control over them.

However, we don't know where the magic behind the soletaken shape-shifting is coming from - it's not the user's own warrens, because it's not only mages who can shape-shift - so it's entirely possible it's from the Beast Hold and its warren, I suppose.

I thought maybe Togg and Fanderey were two of the original gods of the Imass, so it would be natural for them to be on the throne. It would seem that Pran Chole was OK with them taking the throne, since I believe the entire Silverfox subplot was part of the same package. Or maybe he wasn't aware of K'rul's intentions.

[Dolorous Menhir]

It seems that control of the Beast Hold gives some measure of dominion over Soletaken and D'ivers, who are after all beasts of a kind.

In HoC Sha'ik warned the assembled leaders of the Whirlwind that the Beast Thrones had new masters, and any Soletaken among them should be prepared for a visit from their new lords.

So while Togg & Fanny may not have gained control over the T'lan Imass, perhaps they have some kind of influence over the Bonecasters, all Soletaken. I'm inclined to say the Imass & the Winter Wolves would have an amicable relationship though, since they seem closely related groups history-wise.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;176005 said:

So while Togg & Fanny may not have gained control over the T'lan Imass, perhaps they have some kind of influence over the Bonecasters, all Soletaken. I'm inclined to say the Imass & the Winter Wolves would have an amicable relationship though, since they seem closely related groups history-wise.

Well, we know from the fate of the First Empire that the T'lan Imass view themselves as some sort of custodians of Soletaken responsibilities. That is, abuse of being Soletaken and D'ivers might suffer from the attention of the T'lan Imass - thus certain Elder concerns in Midnight tides about the Jheck.

There's a bizarre scene towards the end of Deadhouse Gates when Icarium and Mappo are looking upon a city that was destroyed long ago by Icarium, and there are numerous T'lan Imass remains laying around. Somehow, the leaders of the city had attained T'lan Imass protection, which didn't help against Icarium - but I wonder if that city was First Empire, and if that relationship between it's people and the T'lan Imass had something to do with Soletaken humans perhaps being present there. Or not present there, an agreement having been made that the people of that city would not become shape-changers in return for T'lan Imass cooperation.

We'll probably never know.

[Dolorous Menhir]

kmmontandon;177632 said:

Well, we know from the fate of the First Empire that the T'lan Imass view themselves as some sort of custodians of Soletaken responsibilities. That is, abuse of being Soletaken and D'ivers might suffer from the attention of the T'lan Imass - thus certain Elder concerns in Midnight tides about the Jheck.

I thought the Imass moved on the First Empire because of the general threat the Soletaken madness represented - not because they were Soletaken, but because it was out of control, and the T'lan Imass take it upon themselves to remove such dangers from the world.

Quote

There's a bizarre scene towards the end of Deadhouse Gates when Icarium and Mappo are looking upon a city that was destroyed long ago by Icarium, and there are numerous T'lan Imass remains laying around. Somehow, the leaders of the city had attained T'lan Imass protection, which didn't help against Icarium - but I wonder if that city was First Empire, and if that relationship between it's people and the T'lan Imass had something to do with Soletaken humans perhaps being present there. Or not present there, an agreement having been made that the people of that city would not become shape-changers in return for T'lan Imass cooperation.

We'll probably never know.

Not sure about this. If I have this straight, there was a First Empire city with T'lan Imass remains in DG, but it was found by Heboric & party in the desert, near the end. This was explained as the remnants of the destruction of the First Empire.

And there was another city, found by Mappo & Icarium. The one with the timekeeping device with the "Omtose" writing, showing the destruction was 90-odd thousands years prior. But Icarium destroyed that place, and I can't remember it being anything to do with the Imass. It may well have been First Empire though.

Am I forgetting another bit from DG?

[Illuyankas]

The ninety thousand year old city was First Empire, as Mappo recognised the layout as being First Empire. It's part of the evidence that says the FE is between 90-120,000 years. And the only mention of Imass corpses I can remember is from Felisin and co.'s city.

[Kurt Montandon]

Illuyankas;177649 said:

The ninety thousand year old city was First Empire, as Mappo recognised the layout as being First Empire. It's part of the evidence that says the FE is between 90-120,000 years. And the only mention of Imass corpses I can remember is from Felisin and co.'s city.

Separate references. Heboric's comments about that city made it clear that the Imass came to the city Felisin & friends were passing through in order to purge the city of humans affected by the out-of-control Soletaken ritual. The other city, that Mappo & Fiddler et al go to, was where there were seven scorpion thrones, and one of Icarium's time-keeping artifacts.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Right, they were separate incidents. There were no destroyed Imass at the Icarium one.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;177659 said:

Right, they were separate incidents. There were no destroyed Imass at the Icarium one.

No? Huh, I'll have to check my copy of DG (in a different house at the moment). There is a reference somewhere to a human city being protected from Icarium - unsuccessfully - by the T'lan Imass. Something about an "agreement."

But DG is the Malazan book I've reread the fewest times, so I can remember exactly where the reference is.

EDIT: On the next page (415? Left my book next door), Icarium says that the T'lan Imass fought in defense of the city due to an old alliance between the Silent Host and it's inhabitants, and that there are the remains of thousands of the T'lan Imass beneath the dust. And it was 94,000 years ago, which he thinks must be a mistake, though Mappo knows it's not.

[SiriusL]

Is it at all possible that these are the same city? I suppose not, given that the Soletaken ritual killed (directly or indirectly) so many of the inhabitants of the city that Felisin et al. walked through. But there were a bunch of petrified people in the Felisin/Heboric/Kulp city, while Fiddler and Crokus find some petrified stuff in the Icaruium city. Fiddler says that a practitioner of High D'riss (I believe) could petrify a city almost instantly, implying that Icarium did it.

Coincidence?

There's also an ancient FE city near Shaik's oasis, making this all the more confusing. Apparently Raraku was a network of cities during the FE.

[Battalion]

Does any one think that control over the Beast Hold would give the weilder control over such powerful Soletaken as Rake, Treach, Osserc and co?

[Kurt Montandon]

Battalion;178066 said:

Does any one think that control over the Beast Hold would give the weilder control over such powerful Soletaken as Rake, Treach, Osserc and co?

I don't think that's possible - they would no doubt have the will to resist such compulsion. Besides, I also don't think that the rulers of the Beast Hold have control over Soletaken, exactly, so much as influence, and the inclination to reward worship.

[SiriusL]

kmmontandon;178089 said:

I don't think that's possible - they would no doubt have the will to resist such compulsion. Besides, I also don't think that the rulers of the Beast Hold have control over Soletaken, exactly, so much as influence, and the inclination to reward worship.

Exactly. I wouldn't say any gods have control over their subjects.

Extraordinarly minor spoilers:

Spoiler

Look at the discussions between Cotillion and Kalam, or what happened to QB and Bidithal. Clearly people are allowed to go their own ways if they want. Even the CG doesn't control his...subjects.

It could simply be that being soletaken or d'ivers gives you the ability to take the Beast Hold, if it were vacant. Maybe a full human wouldn't be able to do that.