[kayjin2]

Mother Dark for the Andii, Father Light for the Liosan and Son Shadow for the Edur.
It is mentioned that Scabandari killed the Edur royal family so he usurped their throne and warped the Edur. Rake and his brothers can be considered Andii royalty and Osric and his children can be considered Liosan royalty due to their direct connections to their individual deities.

Andarist, Rake and Silchas are considered the sons of mother dark.
Osric is the Son of Father Light
So who is there for the Edur. Certainly not Scabandari.
It is also curious to note that Scabandari and Osric are considered true brothers but Osric is said to be the first son of light and dark yet he is Liosan.

If Son Shadow exists then maybe he has turned away from the Edur like mother dark has turned from the Andii. It could be even worse since the Edur followed bloodeye even though he might not be of royal blood.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Edur call Scabby "Father Shadow" and "Emurlahnis". I'm not sure where you're getting "Son Shadow" from.

Those names may have been given to him by the unreliable Edur. I think there is no Shadow equivalent to MD & FL, since the Edur were supposed to be produced by a union between those two.

[Brys Beddict]

I think it can be said that the Edur royal line is starting anew. When the Eres'al raped Trull, the child that grew in her womb (People concluded it was Kettle, right? Or am I thinking someone different?) was said to become the new heir to the Throne of Shadow, ruler of a healed Kurald Emurhlan. So either Trull's just been selected because of who he becomes (Knight of Shadow), or his bloodline is the closet to the kings Scabandari killed.

The new child to take the Throne could be considered the new "Son" (Or if it really is Kettle, "Daughter") of Shadow. Afterall, Reborn realm, new beginning, new lineage with a new son/daughter. Makes sense to me.

[Onrack the breakable]

"...Mother Dark for the Andii, Father Light for the Liosan and Son Shadow for the Edur..."

Well it seems MD and FL were actual gods while Scabby was just a wannabe scab.

But on the themes of race gods, don't forget that Eres is the hypothetical 'eve' and for all we know Trull is Adam although I thought before it might be more like Onrack was adam and Tools sister eve. But since Eres can time travel then anything to do with her is possible. Especially since she's a half monkey who doesn't even know what shes looking for.

Next level down from gods, each race seems to have dragons that tend to favor particular races too. Olar Ithil for the T'lan imass, those 3 chained in shadow and the ones whatsisname, Cotillion mentions.

I haven't seen RG yet but it seems that the "son of shadow" or heirs of shadow would refer to those of Scabbys bloodline (like the daughter that was in the azath grounds across from silchas) because they have the charachteristic of being draconic as well. None of the Sengers ever had draconic abilities so it doesn't seem they were very close actual royal bloodline, though they were of noble blood going back who knows how long.

Anyway, it seems more likely there are several "daughter shadows" as no sons seem to exist. Maybe this will be like the Black Company Books and there will suddenly be new world shattering powers comming from nowhere (and takes 3 books later to find out they were really someone that everyone thought died thousands of years ago.).

Frankly, if the universe is so easy to destroy - why bother even trying to save it?

[Wither]

Well - Mother Dark and Father Light were 2 beings that were able to produce offspring through parthenogenesis. I don't recall seeing anything in the books to indicate that Shadow possesed any such progenetive figure.

Quote

When the Eres'al raped Trull, the child that grew in her womb (People concluded it was Kettle, right? Or am I thinking someone different?) was said to become the new heir to the Throne of Shadow

Where does this conclusion come from? I don't recall seeing anything that gave certain identity to the offspring of Trull and the Eres'al (and I can't imagine that it would have been Kettle. How do a Tiste Edur and an Eres goddess give birth to a human child?)

Quote

don't forget that Eres is the hypothetical 'eve' and for all we know Trull is Adam although I thought before it might be more like Onrack was adam and Tools sister eve

I think your second statement is correct with regard to humans. I recall Bottle referring to the Eres'al as the last "pure" soul in the line of descent that ran to humanity, but that isn't the same as being "Eve".

[kayjin2]

Wither;175751 said:

Well - Mother Dark and Father Light were 2 beings that were able to produce offspring through parthenogenesis. I don't recall seeing anything in the books to indicate that Shadow possesed any such progenetive figure.

Parthenogenesis? I dont think so. I think they were created through sorcery. Mother Dark might have been the first elemental force around and thus gave rise to the others and Father Light might have also been a higer level elemental force that was not manifest like some that were birthed by mother dark.
My Genesis theory of the Tiste
Mother Dark sorcerously created the Andii to be her children. They were not the first beings she created rather they were the first to be made in her image and to be made as her peoplechildrenworshippers.
She then in her loneliness allowed Light to become manifest and thus we have Father Light who then through the help of mother Dark creates the Liosan.
The two then truly blend their power to allow a new as yet unforseen force. Son Shadow who is to become the deity of the Edur.
Last part is a bit fuzzy but hey what can you do.

It must be noted that Scabandari is an Ascendant like Rake and Osric and he is worshipped as Father Shadow. SOunds like you can't get higher than that among the Edur. Rake and Osric though are Son's of Mother Dark and Father Light respectively. They are Worshipped as gods but each race knows that there are higher powers than those two. So where is Shadow's Higher power.

It doesn't have to be SOn Shadow, it could be Daughter Shadow but the point i am trying to make is that heshe has to exist.

The royal bloodline might be found in the veins of Trull and his family and because the child is destined to heal Emurlahn and rule Shadow it means that heshe is worthy of ruling.

Chronologically i think that the Andii existed for a long time before the Liosan and then the Liosan and the Andii existed together for some time and in that time the Edur came about but their time together like this was too short.

Also what must be remebered is that Emurlahn is destroyed and Thryllan is inhabited by the Liosan but what of Galain.

The civil wars that Silchas escaped must have ended and it is still to be seen who won.

[Set'alahd Crool]

@ Wither
From MT we have "Answer to the 7th closure" and "Blood of kin" to describe Kettle. The 7th closure turned out to be Rhulad becoming the fist emporor reborn. Trull is Rhulad's kin, so Kettle contains his blood.... I suppose she could be his niece, or 3rd cousin twice removed or somesuch, but I go for daughter.

In tBH we have the whole "..... To make them part of this world, one of their kind must be born....in this way." bit - when Bottle gives Eres' unborn child a quick medical - that tells us Eres is carrying a child whose father is of some other realm, and that the child is to become the ruler of a healed KE.

Put all that together and you get Trull + Eres = Kettle.
Unless other relatives of Rhulad were getting jiggy with Eres off screen, which I doubt.

[Abyss]

Btw, according to the Draconic family Tree, Osric has no mother.
Daddy Light created him some non-traditional way.

Also, the entire notion of a 'royal family' is subjective... who's to say a bunch of Edur in KE didn't just take over and declare themselves 'royalty'. Scabby is allegedly the son of Mommy D and Daddy L, and so he could as easily be royalty as anyone else, depending on how you frame it. And then again, he could be lying - revisionist history is rife in these books.

- Abyss, despises light beer.

[Mael]

Wither;175751 said:

Where does this conclusion come from? I don't recall seeing anything that gave certain identity to the offspring of Trull and the Eres'al (and I can't imagine that it would have been Kettle. How do a Tiste Edur and an Eres goddess give birth to a human child?)

I hate this theory soo much...

It comes from a statement in MT during a flashback that I believe most people misread, combined with a previous discussion on this thread, leading them to conclude that Trull and the Eres father Kettle.

It is an odd conversation that blur's the distinction of time and what is actually implied (in my opinion of course) is that the Eres, due to her manipulation and freedom from the constraints of time, is in fact the mother of....herself (a paradox) who then in turn mother's the Eres race. They make reference to the Eres being both the Mother and the Daughter in the quote. If someone could post the quote it could be helpful since i dont have my book with me at the moment.

The Nerek are the closest remaining decendants of the Eres' people (or maybe just the only ones left that remember anything resembling thier origins.). During said flashback you see the Eres' people (furry little buggers) watching the colony ships of the first empire land on thier isolated shores. This is mildly out of sinc with regard to the timeline of the races since the Eres came before the Imass and should be gone/evolved by the time of the first empire. This could be explained by the reletive isolation of the continent of Lether. It may be possible that those Eres that evolved into the Imass (on 7 cities since that is where the mortal Imass were initially located and maybe other races aswell elsewhere) are members who migrated to other continents from Lether, making the Nerek the least removed genetically from the original species if Lether was thier "motherland".

When Mayen "bless'" the nerek's arrival on Edur holy ground she re-awaken's the Eres who is the nerek's goddess/mother, allowing her access to events in the current time. This allows her access to those with whom she has a link to such as Trull, since he's an Edur noble and a virgin, making him a good pick to father the Eres/nerek race (the Paradox), and bottle (through his knowledge of ancient/old magics and his discovery of the burial ground with the Axes. Remember the unalined place in the holds for the Eres is th Axe.) How and why the Eres got ahold of T'amber may be explained later on.

Think of it this way:

Point B: Eres gives birth to the beginnings of a race of furry bonecasters.
Point C: Eres then wanders into the future and sees a sexy edur (Trull) and does the sliced tummy mambo with him and gets knocked up.
Point A: Eres gives birth at a time before Point B, to herself
Point B: repeat...

Kettle is the Nameless one. Simply a human child that was prepared a long time ago by the nameless ones, most likely as a recepticle for the Forkrul Assail's soul.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Where is this "Eres'al gave birth to herself" stuff coming from?

[kayjin2]

Abyss;175812 said:

Btw, according to the Draconic family Tree, Osric has no mother.
Daddy Light created him some non-traditional way.

Also, the entire notion of a 'royal family' is subjective... who's to say a bunch of Edur in KE didn't just take over and declare themselves 'royalty'. Scabby is allegedly the son of Mommy D and Daddy L, and so he could as easily be royalty as anyone else, depending on how you frame it. And then again, he could be lying - revisionist history is rife in these books.

The family tree is a bit suspect to me but that's beside the point. It is stated that Osric and Scabandari are brothers. So either Bloodeyes's parents are Mother Dark and Father Light or one or the other. I am leaning towards it being Father Light since if Scabandari was a son of Mother Dark then Rake and his brothers would acknowledge him as such.

The dragons which sought to heal Emurlahn clearly stated that Scabandari murdered the royal family. If he was a member it would not matter because he would still have royal blood. To me it is more likely that Scabandari killed the royal family and set himself as the leader of the Edur. He might have even led to the forgetting of the true Shadow deity (Son Shadow). I think the royal family had a patron like mother dark for Rake and his bro's and father light for Osric.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;175868 said:

Where is this "Eres'al gave birth to herself" stuff coming from?

I was looking for the quote at lunch. There is a conversation regarding the Eres'all in MT where an individual (might be Udinass or Brys, can't remember whose "vision" it was) impresses the 2nd party by catching the fact that the Eres held both the mother and daughter positions in the story being told. I wish i had found the quote. Ill look after work.

[Mana_Garmr]

Quote

Seren: 'And what do the Nerek believe?'

Hull: 'That they were all born of a single mother, countless generations past, who was the thief of fire and walked through time, seeking that which might answer a need that consumed her - although she could never discover the nature of that need. One time, in her journey, she took within her a sacred seed, and so gave birth to a girl-child.To all outward appearances', he continued, 'that child was little different from her mother, for the sacredness was hidden to this day. Within the Nerek, who are the offspring of that child.'
.
.
.
Seren: 'And does this first mother's mother have a name?'

Hull: 'Ah, you noticed the confused blending of the two, as if they were roles rather than distinct individuals. Maiden, mother and grandmother, a progression through time-'

Page 273 in my version, partway through chapter 7.

[Abyss]

kayjin2;175908 said:

The family tree is a bit suspect to me but that's beside the point. It is stated that Osric and Scabandari are brothers. ...

This, more than anything, is a key point. It's certainly possible Scabby was Mommy D and Daddy L's offspring, but, imnsho, equally possible that was just a lie he spread after getting his freak on with Tiam.

- Abyss, damn that Tiam gets around.

[spiralx]

Mana_Garmr;176515 said:

Page 273 in my version, partway through chapter 7.

Which says nothing about giving birth to herself...

[Alexani]

That doesn't prove that the Eres is her own mother. It is a circular argument, because you have to be born in order to give birth, but then again if you are to give birth to yourself, then you wouldn't be born at the time when you got pregnant. It makes my head hurt just trying to figure out exactly how this would work.

Anyways, if the coolest thing you could think of doing with your time travel abilities is to go have an incestous relationship with your father, then you shouldn't be allowed to time travel at all.

Edited for spelling.

[Mael]

Alexani;176621 said:

That doesn't prove that the Eres is her own mother. It is a circular argument, because you have to be born in order to give birth, but then again if you are to give birth to yourself, then you wouldn't be born at the time when you got pregnant. It makes my head hurt just trying to figure out exactly how this would work.

And that is what a paradox is. A time based circle of events whose "end" triggers the "beginning" of said events. There are allusions to Paradox throughout the books. The character Circlebreaker for instance who Kruppe says "mends" the circle through his actions (im sure he did something at the fete we are not aware of) or Trull who has the circle broken with a slash carved onto his head during his shorning. Icarium's keeping track of time and perfectly predicted, yet not so well interpreted, events on his machines....etc.

No the quote does not mention the Eres giving birth to herself but i am posing a theory that i believe makes more sense (Givin her nature) then Kettle being thier child. Someone please show me how people managed to come up with the whole Kettle is the daughter theory.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The "Kettle born of union between Eres'al & Trull" theory has already been laid out above in this thread, and I would go so far as to call it almost certainly correct given what we currently know.

The quote about the Eres'al merely implies that some confusion exists in the legend of the Eres'al. This is by no means the same thing as "the Eres'al gave birth to herself." SE may have gone as far as time travel, but you'll have to provide more supporting evidence before I'll believe the Eres is her own mother. I don't understand how you can refuse to see the case for Kettle being the child of the Eres'al and, instead, propose an alternative that makes no sense.

edited so it will make sense

[Abyss]

The quote M-G provides above suggests a question whether the Nerek may descend from the Eres, or her child, or both in some fashion.

@Mael - am i following that your theory is based on the fact that the Eres is a time traveller, a possible reading of that quote, and nothing else?

- Abyss, pleads for someone to put the word 'of' into the thread title.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the intent was to use "Son Shadow" in the same sense as "Mother Dark" or "Father Light."

Father Shadow is the term used in MT though.