[Dolorous Menhir]

SE clearly had the whole series planned out from the start. I don't doubt that we'll find out some greater significance to the Gardens of the Moon. I quite like the idea that the KCCM came from there, and the link to Grizzin Farl would be interesting.

[Binder of Demons]

I've been wondering if the Moon was basically a colony ship for whoever were it's original inhabitants. KCCM? A large enough size for whole generations to survive an interstellar trip and colonize Wu. The Gardens on the Moon might simply be ornament or food production areas, like hydroponics hence the oceans?

The Sky-keeps and Moons spawn could then be simply an extension of the same technology. Maybe using asteroids to provide the basic structure, or actually be made from pieces of the "Moon".

Now why would the Gardens of the Moon title be significant? I think eventually the the moon will provide the answers to where the various outside groups that have reached Wu have come from. Such as the KCCM, and maybe the Jade statues etc.

I just keep wondering if there will eventually be a more tech heavy explanation of how things work on Wu, like magic etc. I'm always reminded of the quote from Arthur C. Clarke that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Now I love sci-fi but I'm hoping the explanations for the workings of Wu don't center on technology.



P.S. Sorry to be pedantic, but to correct a post above, Spiders and Scorpions are both Arachnids, not Crustaceans (which do make an appearance in the books however in the description of Mael being crab like).

[Aptorian]

The whole moon being a traveling vessel for the KCCM civilization seems a bit too Star Treky. BUt as a ceazy theory I like it, it would also explain why the other Moons that's supposed to have been there could have disappeared... The KCCM went some other place.

Then again that notion implies that the KCCM are startravelers, something that in a universe filled with magic seems improbable. It's more likely that they just travel in their "smaller" skykeeps inbetween the realms.

[spiralx]

Aren't the sky keeps in BH coming out of Chaos into the Imperial Warren? Maybe that's where they've been.

[Mael]

Wither;174747 said:

For those of you who fixate solely upon the physical location of the gardens on the Moon, I am curious as to why you feel that physical setting was considered so central to the first novel that SE made it the title? It play sno part in the story itself, has no direct bearing on either plot or character development, and is never seen or visited directly. Even Apsalar's mention of the gardens seems to be a non sequitor (following immediately after the discovery of a dead man, interestingly enough). I certainly do not dispute that Apsalar is talking about a literal garden on the Moon (and under the sea - perhaps Grallin is an octopus? Or perhaps he is an Elder God of Death once known as Grazzin Farl? Or perhaps he is a giant Jade Statue?)

I do wonder, though, why do you think SE chose to emblazon that physical location in large letters on the cover of the first book of this series?

I have a feeling that the Title of the first book is central to the entire series and that certain events and people (circlebreaker) in the first book will recieve additional clarification by the end of the series making the name far more poinient.

Quote

Then again that notion implies that the KCCM are startravelers, something that in a universe filled with magic seems improbable. It's more likely that they just travel in their "smaller" skykeeps inbetween the realms.

During one of Heboric's enlightening moments he is blasted with the knowledge that all the stars in the sky are actually sun's surrounded by different worlds, populated by different peoples, etc. In a vision of the Jade giants (which could be either prisons or transports flying through space) he gets yanked into a black hole (motherdark). The Ceda uses science and understanding in order to advance his knowledge of the world around him and subsequently his magical understanding of it. Karsa finds mechanical bugs inside the dead KCNR he beats down. In this series anything is possible....

[Midnight]

just another point regarding the moon thing. it is stated in MT that it is not the only moon, the Ceda mentions there are around four but they have been occluded from sight...if there are literal gardens on the moon perhaps there is even crazier stuff going on on the other ones.

For my part i always assumed the first title was a metaphor meaning paradise, a contrast to the war and suffering of the war but after reading BH i think it may be a bit more literal...

[Aptorian]

Don't get me wrong spaceflight might of course be a possibilty for the KCCM, they have more advanced tech then we do after all.

What I mean is, if the KCCM don't mind messing with Chaos, they'll be punching through barriers of planets, "CG fall"-style, before they go on a billion billion kilometer trip through space.

Efficiency

Of course maybe they were space travellers from a place without magic before they learned what wonders magic can do for you travelling plans... just seems unlikely.

[The Archivist]

For some reason the Jade Statue's finger pointing to the sky made me think of the Buddhist saying about staring at the finger and missing all the heavenly glory of the moon. Perhaps, SE has all of us staring at the finger and missing the point. Not sure what that point is, but the waiting is certainly fun.:confused:

[mot]

To go back to an earlier post by Mael concerning the possible MOI reference to Ardatha, there are two or three other sections in which characters discuss the feeling that someone is controlling, or at least tweaking, the events. Paran, for instance, becomes suspicious of the serendipity of the events coming together after the siege of Capustan. His inner dialogue is about the rise of Trake at the exact same moment as the fall of Fener (though someone then suggests that this is CG manipulation). The sticksnare on QB's shoulder as discussed the web-like plan QB mumbled about, then both Whiskeyjack and Dujek (I think) also discuss this feeling. The QB connection is interesting in that it would seem he not only knows warren magic, but also other magic as his 'sticks and string' use in both GOTM, MOI, and BH demonstrate. Which leads to three last musings: 1) does this particular use of magic have something to do with Ardath (tied up strings and webs?), 2) could QB know this because of the possessed souls was a follower or disciple, like Mogora, who is also on 7C?, and 3) not a question, but, as I'm sure it has been pointed out before, Ardath seems to be a throw out by SE to Cook's "The Black Company" since that was one of the three possible names to the Lady (I think it ends up being Soulcatcher's real name).

[Dolorous Menhir]

I see K'rul's hand behind a lot of the events in MoI. He's bringing forward potential allies from his active days (Treach, Togg & Fanny, maybe Draconus eventually).

Ardatha, by contrast, seems to be hiding permanently in the refuge seen during Mappo's healing in BH. I don't think she's taking an active role in current affairs, at least at the time MoI took place.

I don't think it's quite right to associate a particular magical technique (such as QB's manipulation of puppet Hairlock with the sticks in GotM) with a certain god.

[ASAGO]

I am pretty sure that Anomander Rake has something to do with the KCCM he is always gone on some erronous task like in book 3 just before he shows up he was late in arrival I am stretching out here but since the tise edure betrayed the tiste andii I think rake came to term with the surviving KCCM and moons spawn is just a sky keep it self

[ASAGO]

ASAGO;175137 said:

I am pretty sure that Anomander Rake has something to do with the KCCM he is always gone on some erronous task like in book 3 just before he shows up he was late in arrival I am stretching out here but since the tise edure betrayed the tiste andii I think rake came to term with the surviving KCCM and moons spawn is just a sky keep it self

even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day but why noy a broken sun dial?

[Dolorous Menhir]

ASAGO;175137 said:

I am pretty sure that Anomander Rake has something to do with the KCCM he is always gone on some erronous task like in book 3 just before he shows up he was late in arrival I am stretching out here but since the tise edure betrayed the tiste andii I think rake came to term with the surviving KCCM and moons spawn is just a sky keep it self

Rake found Moon's Spawn abandoned in a glacier. I doubt he was allied with the KCCM.

I'm not sure if English is your first language, ASAGO, but your posts would be much easier to understand if you read over them a second time to look for mistakes. And used punctuation.

[Coldsnap]

Again with the anal retentive demands for proper writing skills!!! Why won't someone warn this guy like I was warned when I blasted him for this same thing on my first day on this forum. Beru fend, its not like this forum is our whole life and we plan our threads on paper, then a rough draft, then a finalized version that we finally post. Read the thread or don't, but leave the guy alone.

And here's another paragraph to make it easier to read. LOL. Asago, i couldnt' care less if you write well or not... the fact that you take time out of ur day to even write on this thing rocks!

I hope I don't get warned for this. This was pathetically nice considering what I really want to write to this guy! Please keep that in mind before kickin me off the forum.

[Blacksox]

Coldsnap;175155 said:

Again with the anal retentive demands for proper writing skills!!! Why won't someone warn this guy like I was warned when I blasted him for this same thing on my first day on this forum. Beru fend, its not like this forum is our whole life and we plan our threads on paper, then a rough draft, then a finalized version that we finally post. Read the thread or don't, but leave the guy alone.

And here's another paragraph to make it easier to read. LOL. Asago, i couldnt' care less if you write well or not... the fact that you take time out of ur day to even write on this thing rocks!

I hope I don't get warned for this. This was pathetically nice considering what I really want to write to this guy! Please keep that in mind before kickin me off the forum.

Dito

But I don't think he meant anything derogatory by it. Reading that paragraph was exhausting without any brakes.LOL

But seriously I see that too many times on forums where people get slammed for typos.

[vrai]

I woke up this morning and thought 'Crusteceans, damn, they're not crusteceans, they're arachnids'.

(With respect to 'The Black Company' the only certain name matched to a person was Dorotea/...that would be telling. But I've got enough catching up to do; I'll leave Ardath/SoulCatcher to next year.)

('Ardatha' is also the name of a city in the Earthdawn fantasy role playing game. Please let it be a co-incident.)

I did enjoy the philosophy of technology start-up in BH, but I can't see this being anything but a minor theme. Advanced tech in KCCM, even space travel, fine, but there hasn't been enough groundwork to take it farther quite yet.

Ah, I've seen too many forums when the person asking for proper punctuation gets slammed by ten people telling them to lay off. Relax, and check the post count... anal he's not. D. Menhir has a lot more invested in the forum thus far than I do... and he's come down on my toes too.

That being said, I'll be interested to find out what Rake's new method of transportation might be... or perhaps he'll just wing it.

How many days left to RG?

[Wither]

Lord Senjak and his daughters Ardath,
Credence, and Sylith. The youngest, one Dorotea

As vrai says, only Dorotea is positively identified.

For myself, I believe Oseric was correct in declaring that Moon's Spawn was not of the world of Wu, but that doesn not necessarily imply space travel. travel through a warren would seem to be more efficient, and if the KCCM "warren" was one of gravity, then it would seem that wormholes/folded space might also be the answer.

[Fid]

vrai;175167 said:

That being said, I'll be interested to find out what Rake's new method of transportation might be... or perhaps he'll just wing it.

LOL That was a great start to my morning! Just what I needed before I started proof reading a proposed organisation structure.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Coldsnap;175155 said:

Again with the anal retentive demands for proper writing skills!!! Why won't someone warn this guy like I was warned when I blasted him for this same thing on my first day on this forum. Beru fend, its not like this forum is our whole life and we plan our threads on paper, then a rough draft, then a finalized version that we finally post. Read the thread or don't, but leave the guy alone.

And here's another paragraph to make it easier to read. LOL. Asago, i couldnt' care less if you write well or not... the fact that you take time out of ur day to even write on this thing rocks!

I hope I don't get warned for this. This was pathetically nice considering what I really want to write to this guy! Please keep that in mind before kickin me off the forum.

ASAGO usually has a lot of interesting things to say, and the lack of clarity in his/her posts is a genuine obstacle to understanding them. I'm not requesting grammatical perfection just for the sake of it, else I would constantly be on the backs of almost every member.

You got warned on your first day for launching a bitter personal attack on me at the first hint of criticism. I know, this is the internet and that's how it goes, but fortunately this site is different. You learned your lesson and you haven't done it again, so consider the matter closed. I do.

To keep this post a bit on topic:

Fid;175184 said:

LOL That was a great start to my morning! Just what I needed before I started proof reading a proposed organisation structure.

Moon's Spawn was more a living space for the Tiste Andii (there was a city in there) than a means of travel for Rake. Now that they have Black Coral to live in, Rake will probably just travel by warren to wherever he needs to go, which he often did anyway. Or as you say, he can fly.