[ASAGO]

I rember reading in this forum that she was a goddess of some sort, Where can I find more about her besides in BH. I know she heals Mappo and besides Pust bickering about her thats all i can find can someone direct me where I can find where it gives me more info about her specifically?

[Koryk of the Seti]

i dont think she is a godess and i dont know where u got that from. she is a follower of the spider goddess ardata which is stated numerous times and she (i think) borrows her powers to heal mappo hence the spider web deisign and so forth

[Dolorous Menhir]

She's a spider D'ivers, a disciple of Ardata's, and Pust's (not-very-fair) other half. Not a goddess.

[Aptorian]

She shows up in the end of DG, where Pust and her first meet. She's came to the Path of Hands apparently to prevent the D'ivers from getting to the portal. A good indication that she's benign since Goodhood has been at her disposal all the time.

Then again in HoC it seem's they've married, but if my memory serves me right she's not used as much more than comidic relief. Her passive status could indicate that she's been positioned in the temple to still guard the entrance but also keep an eye on pust... all though I think she does in fact love her husband, in that special way only dal honese seem able.

it's only by BH that we start to realise what powers she works for and what she's capable of.

So: Spider divers, diciple of a supposed elder goddess and she seems to be a very powerfull witch.

[Jorram]

One little note: I'm pretty sure they're already married by DG.

[Mael]

As stated above she is a Desciple of Ardata's and is probably the least subtle part of a theme spiders that is slowly slipping its way into the books.

In MoI the meybe is viewing and speaking through the bone cage in the dream world where Toc the younger is "imprisoned". Suddenly the ribs of the cage become spider legs and she begins sliding down a web.

Mogora's healing of Mappo using the moon/ardata's power.

"Ardatha's" resistance to the Kallorian Empire during the time of the First empire.

There are other subtle references alluding to Ardata's manipulation of events but i can't remember them at the moment.

One thing i always wondered is if Ardata is in fact the Queen of Dreams. It would make sense since the moon and ardata's power appear to be linked in some way. At the end of BH the Queen of dreams says she is a goddess whose realm is about to be usurped. At the end of the book the moon appears to crumble in some fashion leading me to believe that these two are related.

An interesting side note:

Remember that the Crippled God was lured down to Wu with a promise of power because he was at war in his own realm.

At the end of GotM Apsalar has a moment of loquaciousness and says something to the effect of "we will all live on the moon, in beautiful underwater gardens lovingly tended by the god Grillon."

In MT, Udinass is asked "You see them in your dreams don't you? You see the dying overgrown gardens.." or something to that effect.

I believe Grillon is the Crippled God. It may be that he and his people were besieged and he was looking for a way to save them, then was torn from his realm, leaving them abandoned.

If this is in fact the case, then why is another god from the moon manipulating events aswell?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;174377 said:

One thing i always wondered is if Ardata is in fact the Queen of Dreams. It would make sense since the moon and ardata's power appear to be linked in some way. At the end of BH the Queen of dreams says she is a goddess whose realm is about to be usurped. At the end of the book the moon appears to crumble in some fashion leading me to believe that these two are related.

The Queen of Dreams is an ascended human sorceress named T'riss. She is not hiding in the past, and her aspect appears to be "divination" or something along those lines (that doesn't feel like the right word). The only link I see between the Queen of Dreams and Ardatha is that they are both female goddesses.

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An interesting side note:

Remember that the Crippled God was lured down to Wu with a promise of power because he was at war in his own realm.

At the end of GotM Apsalar has a moment of loquaciousness and says something to the effect of "we will all live on the moon, in beautiful underwater gardens lovingly tended by the god Grillon."

In MT, Udinass is asked "You see them in your dreams don't you? You see the dying overgrown gardens.." or something to that effect.

I believe Grillon is the Crippled God. It may be that he and his people were besieged and he was looking for a way to save them, then was torn from his realm, leaving them abandoned.

If this is in fact the case, then why is another god from the moon manipulating events aswell?

Where is this reference to Grillon in GotM? It doesn't ring any bells at all.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;174389 said:

Where is this reference to Grillon in GotM? It doesn't ring any bells at all.

Near the very end. I believe she says it to Crokus in the Garden at the fete right before Mammot is possessed or thereabbouts. It didn't ring any bells for me either and then i read the book again a month back and was like, holy shit!!! She says it completely out of nowhere, almost like shes possessed.

Bah, i thought Burn was T'riss. Getting my goddesses mixed up.

Another funny thing...when Mael tells iron bars he has to go into the yard of a dead azath tower Iron bars laughs and refers to it as a garden Fete. I still think that the birth of the New Azath in Darujustan and the death of the old one in Lether are related...

Wouldn't it be interesting if Gothos placed scabbies soul in an Azath Seed and then lost it in a card game to raest who then used it to terrorize the Imass, who imprissoned him with it, only to have it planted in the garden of darujustan? I'm not saying this is even remotly possible...just that it would be interesting

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ok, I found the quote. I'll post it, since I didn't remember it at all and it's interesting.

Gardens of the Moon, on p 567, said:

"Look at the moon," Apsalar breathed, from the far side of the platform.

Crokus shivered. She was still a cold one, at times. "Which one?" he asked, rising.

"The shining one, of course."

Feeling contrary, Crokus studied Moon's Spawn instead. A faint reddish glow suffused it - something he'd not seen before. A worm of fear squirmed in his stomach. Then his eyes widened. Five massive winged shapes seemed to sweep down the Moon's face, angling north-east. He blinked, and they were gone.

"Do you see its oceans?" Apsalar asked.

"What?" He turned.

"Its oceans. Grallin's Sea. That's the big one. The Lord of the Deep Waters living there is named Grallin. He tends vast, beautiful underwater gardens. Grallin will come down to us, one day, to our world. And he'll gather his chosen and take them to his world. And we'll live in those gardens, warmed by the deep fires, and our children will swim like dolphins, and we'll be happy since there won't be any more wars, and no empires, and no swords and shields. Oh, Crokus, it'll be wonderful, won't it?"

Her profile was in silhouette. He stared at her. "Of course," he said quietly. "Why not?" And then that question repeated itself in his head for an entirely different reason. Why not?

It's not like SE to give us an infodump like that without it becoming relevant later. But I don't see any obvious links to other gods or events in the books. "The Lord of Deep Waters" suggests Mael, obviously. "Grallin" is not close to anything I can think of except the Gral, and I don't see what they've got to do with gods on the moon.

Could this be some kind of fisherman's lore (from Apsalar's father) or Itko Kanese mythology?

[Trotts]

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or Itko Kanese mythology?

It has that flavour to me, like a Kanese childrens story, or some sort of mythology.


But at the same time, its hard to ignore some of the similarities, and the fact that the moon crops up repeatedly.

[Aptorian]

I'll give Mael mad probs for thinking out of the box, I have always believed that some important factor is connected to the first books tittle. Something we haven't yet realised yet has the greatest importance, like brother light being on the moon, etc.

Could someone find this mybe reference with the bony cage of spider legs, because I really don't remember this.

Of course as always DM is there to disprove the crazy theories but still this Grallin's Sea thing is damn interesting. Seeing as few things in MBotF don't have a seed of truth in them.

But of course, what does this mean in relation to ardatha? Nothing or everything? I love this forum....

[vrai]

I noted the quote for future reference way back when, and I found it very interesting at the time, but more that she was free-associating experiences/ memories from Cotillion (and his set-to's with Rake). Makes no sense whatsoever now, but the thing is... we're talking about Moon Spawn.

It's not a moon per se; it's a transportation device (K'Chain Che-Malle if the BH is to be believed). And it does end up in the ocean at the end of MoI (at least we are left with that impression).

Corrections would be appreciated.

[Wither]

I've always taken the title of the fist book to be primarily metaphorical. On the literal level, it refers to Apsalar's tale, but that tale itself seems to to be an allegory for a blissful afterlife.

On another level, Moon's Spawn is refered to throughout the first book as "the Moon" as well, and some of the more philosophical passages of GotM deal with Anomander Rake and the motives/reasons/ethos that drive the Tiste Andii. So what grows in the gardens of Moon's Spawn? "Is an honourable cause worth anything these days? Does it matter that we've borrowed it? We fight as well as any man. We die alongside them. Mercenaries of the spirit. And even that is a coin we scarcely value. Why? It doesn't matter why. But we never betray our allies."

On another level, it is the Tiste Andii themselves that grow (or now wither) in the Gardens of the Moon. But allegorical connections can be found in a number of other places as well. Three times, "the Moon" cast it's shadow over cities where the Malazan army was engaged:

• At Pale, the Bridgeburnes were decimated in underground caverns, and the trust between army and Empress was riven.
  
• At Darujhistan, new alliances were formed underneath Moon's shadow, and an Azath House bloomed to life in Simtal's garden
  
• In MOI, it is WhiskeyJack and the fallen Bridgeburners who are planteed in Moon's Spawn's "gardens". (And yes, Vrai, it ends up in the Deep Waters.)

So there you have it. In the Gardens of the Moon grows paradise or honor or death or justice or comraderie or eternal peace. Or all of the above.

[Dark Mac]

Wither;174523 said:

But we never betray our allies"

Reference to Scabby and the Tiste Edur right there?

[Dolorous Menhir]

vrai;174499 said:

I noted the quote for future reference way back when, and I found it very interesting at the time, but more that she was free-associating experiences/ memories from Cotillion (and his set-to's with Rake). Makes no sense whatsoever now, but the thing is... we're talking about Moon Spawn.

It's not a moon per se; it's a transportation device (K'Chain Che-Malle if the BH is to be believed). And it does end up in the ocean at the end of MoI (at least we are left with that impression).

Corrections would be appreciated.

The Gardens of the first title are on the actual moon, not Moon's Spawn. They were destroyed in BH. I'm not trying to be condescending, but it's seems from your post that you are mixing the two up.

[Wither]

Dolorous Menhir;174543 said:

The Gardens of the first title are on the actual moon, not Moon's Spawn. They were destroyed in BH. I'm not trying to be condescending, but it's seems from your post that you are mixing the two up.

I have no wish to be condescending either, but I think you are taking far to "literal" an approach to a "literary" question. Gardens are a recurring theme in the series, as are the sow/reap metaphor and the identification of Moon's Spawn with the Moon (which happens in the very passage - the only passage - that the gardens are mentioned in GotM.) It is no accident that when Apsalar says "look at the moon" SE directs our attention first to Moon's Spawn and the flight of dragons before Apsalar launches into her fable.

I wont' pretend that I know exactly why SE structured that scene in that manner, but I am certain that authors make such decisions on purpose - especially when they are about to introduce the image that gives the book its title.

[Mael]

Crokus asked the question "which one" to determine if she was referring to the moon or moons spawn.

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"The shining one, of course."

Feeling contrary, Crokus studied Moon's Spawn instead.

she was definatly referring to the actual moon. Not Moons Spawn.

Also, remember at the end of BH that it makes mentions of the gardens dying when the moon begins breaking apart.

Another interesting side note: Why is it called Moon's Spawn? It may be entirely possible that Moon's Spawn and the other flying fortress came to Wu with the KCNR from the moon initially, colonizing Wu long before any of the recorded events (before thier replacement by the KCCM, dying out, or whatever happened to them). Or it could just be a catchy name since it looks like a small low flying moon.

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Could someone find this mybe reference with the bony cage of spider legs, because I really don't remember this.

It is near the 3/4 mark in MoI. The mhybe is talking to Toc through the flesh and bone cage (Toc thinks hes talking to the seer) and then the vertical bones turns into giant spider legs and the ground shes standing on becomes a web she begins to slide down to eventually wake up in the wagon.

Helian's fear of spiders may also come into play later with regard to Ardata.

[vrai]

It's not so much condescending that would bother me, it would be assuming complete ignorance. I asked for corrections and you provided it...

The books are dense enough, even Dolorous M. (is D Menhir preferred?) had to go back to the beginning for the Grallin reference. I misread the sentence, that is all.

If I were a literalist, I'd be reading Isaac Asimov still. ;-) Most of the decent fantasy series have garden images (and all of the bad ones) because that is where the rich folk prove they're rich.

The real problem is that I've been puzzling over that imagery in GotM for quite a while (hard to believe) for exactly the reason you gave... and wondering what was SE is up to. I'd be very careful in assuming the title is metaphorical; 'But we never betray our allies' certainly isn't.

(I don't want to drift off the thread here, but I've been trying to find the thread that established the world's name. I think I even posted to it. The search engine loves me not... because 'Wu' is too short.)

Back to Mogara; there are a lot of crustaceans throughout the series; but the spiders do get much more sympathetic treatment than the scorpions. I've always liked her attitude.

[Dolorous Menhir]

"Wu" came into use due to an SE interview a while ago, I think. He was asked what the world was called, and suggested "Wu" because it was part of a song he liked or something along those lines. He immediately backed away from actually calling it that in the interview, but unfortunately it seems to have stuck here.

I think it's stupid, since there's a Wu in the books already, one of the authors quoted in the chapter openings. The alternatives are pretty cumbersome though, Malazworld or Malazaland don't exactly trip off the tongue.

I thought the "Gardens on the Moon" story was just that, a children's story that Apsalar remembered. But then they were destroyed in BH, and it wasn't a particular character's POV or words, it was the narrator of the book. So the Gardens must've been real.

[Wither]

For those of you who fixate solely upon the physical location of the gardens on the Moon, I am curious as to why you feel that physical setting was considered so central to the first novel that SE made it the title? It play sno part in the story itself, has no direct bearing on either plot or character development, and is never seen or visited directly. Even Apsalar's mention of the gardens seems to be a non sequitor (following immediately after the discovery of a dead man, interestingly enough). I certainly do not dispute that Apsalar is talking about a literal garden on the Moon (and under the sea - perhaps Grallin is an octopus? Or perhaps he is an Elder God of Death once known as Grazzin Farl? Or perhaps he is a giant Jade Statue?)

I do wonder, though, why do you think SE chose to emblazon that physical location in large letters on the cover of the first book of this series?

As for Mogora, I was happy to see her develop a little life of her own in BH, rather than functioning almost exclusively as a foil for Pust. But she is a goddess only to her dear Iskaral (he must love her, else why threaten the mule?)