[Aptorian]

Man there's a lot of jumping to conclussions and weak deductions going on in this thread. You're talking about powerful creatures, in particular situations that are significant in that time and place but cant necessarily be taken as clear evidence for their powers in any other situation.

I think everyone feels that Scabby is enferior to Rake and Ruin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Scabby couldn't kill Ruin. Free cheap shot and all.

Maybe there was something weird going on or maybe some ascendants can't be killed with just a thrust of a dagger or chop of a sword, never mind it being a magically infused weapon Scabby was using. Scabby was just being clever and chose incapacitating the guy instead of trying to take him out. Maybe Ruin can fire magical balls of darkness out of his ass... we just don't know.

Lets see what we know about Ruin and Scabby's powers and accomplishments, feel free to point it out if I missed something essential:

- Ruin is a born ascendant, The product of MD, he has no father.
- He drank far deeper from Tiams blood than Rake (Is it just Rake or is it everyone who's ever had a sip? if not who says Scabby didnt drink more then?)
- He managed to kill a matron.
- He's killed Forkruls Assails but I don't think the vision Kettle saw ment Ruin himself has travelled around Wu destroying them alone. I bet he had lots of help and a lot of unveilings of KG were used to destroy the FA's they fought. Remember the hint that the FA couldnt agree on passing sentence on the Andii. The FA were by then dying out along with the KCCM.
- He killed the Seregahl, but honestly they were a bunch of pussies.

- Scabby must be a born ascendant aswell, allthough I don't remember it mentioned in the books, he's listed in the draconean family tree by Baruk as the product of Mother Dark and Father Light.
- Like Ruin he must have drinked from Tiam but evidently not as much as the great albino.
- he was envolved in the slaying of the Edur royal family. This has always made me wonder, if he's not a part of the royal line, does that mean he's not a first born edur ascendant like the Andii firsts or does it just mean that the Edur's existed long enough in KE to evolve an aristocracy not connected to the original blood?
- He somehow managed to rip KE asunder, how we don't know but I find that a lot more awesome than killing a Matron or slaying a few FA's
... Who want's to bet real money it was an Edur sapper that dropped an enourmous Edur cusser the wrong place at the wrong time?

All this gives me the feeling we shouldn't underestimate Scabby, there's just not enough info on what he passed his time accomplishing between destroying homeworlds and stabbing people for sport.

About Icarium: Icarium hasn't been proven more powerfull than the gods, the gods just don't run around smitting cities and laying waste to civilizations any longer, Iccy says so himself in DG.

Iccy is actually something of a mystery, seeing as it doesn't make sense that all the gods haven't teamed up on him according to the power draws power rule.

It is not proven how ever that who ever Traveler is, he could kill Icarium. Calm Iccy thinks he could be killed by Traveler, but Calm Iccy doesn't know what he is.

If Traveler could kill Iccy why didn't Cot just teleport him into the cave then?

[Rat Mentor]

Regarding "oil on the fire quote" -

Would the God in question be the Errant or The GC?????

Pat, lap it up while you can...

[KarsaPast]

Quite Possibly.
:eek:

[Morgoth]

Rat Mentor;172645 said:

I guess Ruin must be more powerful than Scabby as he drank deeper from Tiam.

This argument is brought up again and again, and it anoys me a great deal. Do anyone really think that it's that simple. That whomever drank the most wins?

More likely, drinking more of Tiam's blood makes you more draconean of nature, rather than more powerfull..

,,,jeez, that's a lot of more

[pat5150]

Rat Mentor;173623 said:

Regarding "oil on the fire quote" -

Would the God in question be the Errant or The GC?????

Pat, lap it up while you can...

Oh, that was just something I said in passing. . .:angel:

Patrick

[Rat Mentor]

Morgoth,

Sorry to annoy you with my guess upon power level's.

Your point regarding the drinking of Tiam's blood = more draconic of nature is valid. Who know's if having drank from possibly the most powerful of God's has an effect upon a being's power level? It must have some relevance. I'll stop posting now on this subject, don't wish to piss you off.

[Rat Mentor]

Pat,

I hope you end up in heaven, if you go to the other place I'll be waiting!!!!

[spiralx]

Rat Mentor;173631 said:

Morgoth,

Sorry to annoy you with my guess upon power level's.

Your point regarding the drinking of Tiam's blood = more draconic of nature is valid. Who know's if having drank from possibly the most powerful of God's has an effect upon a being's power level? It must have some relevance. I'll stop posting now on this subject, don't wish to piss you off.

That however assumes that Tiam is more powerful than other gods. We don't know that yet.

[Morgoth]

Rat Mentor;173631 said:

Morgoth,

Sorry to annoy you with my guess upon power level's.

Your point regarding the drinking of Tiam's blood = more draconic of nature is valid. Who know's if having drank from possibly the most powerful of God's has an effect upon a being's power level? It must have some relevance. I'll stop posting now on this subject, don't wish to piss you off.

damn.. sorry about that.. I shouldn't post from work as my mood isn't the bestn when being here.. I find the theory of more blood = more power highly unlikely, but don't let my grumpiness put you off the discussion.

Shit, I'm turning into Malarion

[Lucifer's Heaven]

I personally always thought that more blood = more power gained. I kinda figured the Blood would be an elixar that would give them more access to SD and a greater Dragon form. I guess maybe not more power, but more potential for power. It sort of gives them more and more access to SD, which gives them more flexibility and potentially more power. The more flexibility (as in a greater access to SD, plus whatever they could already wield) adds a huge amount to ones deadliness (Quick Ben for example).

But this doesn't change the fact that, even if it does bestowe a direct transfer of power, we don't know who was stronger in the first place. In this is case then, Scabbi may have been more powerful than SR to begin with, and the extra blood just brought SR up to Scabbi's level. We really don't know (though I like SR so much more than Scabbi).

Also, what the hell is with ascending? Kell and Dancer died to ascend, or ascended when they died. So did Treach. So why then would Rake not do so when killed? Maybe it's only mortals who need to do that. The transition between mortal and immortal. But Trake was already immortal. And what about the Tiste Andii? Do they need to? And if not, where does that leave the TA and human offspring? The Bluerose? Where does one draw the line as to when one's death is final?

[Morgoth]

bah... to repeat the mantra

The paths to ascendancy are many something something something... seems my memory is not what it used to be

[Aptorian]

Lucifer said:

Also, what the hell is with ascending? Kell and Dancer died to ascend, or ascended when they died. So did Treach. So why then would Rake not do so when killed? Maybe it's only mortals who need to do that. The transition between mortal and immortal. But Trake was already immortal. And what about the Tiste Andii? Do they need to? And if not, where does that leave the TA and human offspring? The Bluerose? Where does one draw the line as to when one's death is final?

Uhm... Rake and Ruin are ascendants, they were born powerfull.

Trake was already and ascendant or a first hero if you will, hence the immortality.

The only mortals, or ascendants for that matter, who hasn't passed on yet after death, are the ones that are pieces in the Gods game. Paran was saved by Oponn, Toc was saved by K'rul/Togg, Treach was needed to fill the hole Fener left, Heboric was needed to save the world, etc.

[Dark Mac]

I'm curious, where does it say that Scabby was born an ascendant? I don't recall that ever being explicitly stated, and we know that the Draconean Family Tree isn't trustworthy.

[Aptorian]

Like I wrote, I don't remember him mentioned as an ascendant either.

It's pretty circumstancial but one would believe that to kill the royal line of the edur, destroy a warren, lead the edur forces into battle and face of with Mael and Killy and of course take a sip from Tiams lemonade stand... you have to be more than just a mortal edur.

[Dark Mac]

Well, yeah, clearly he became an ascendant. Perhaps around the time he drank dragon's blood...or maybe even by killing the royal family.

[Brys Beddict]

I think in order to kill the royal family of the Edur, he had to first drink from Tiam. That alone would increase his power and it definitely made him a soletaken. Bloodeye could easily have been a highly ambitious guard in service to the royal family that seduced Tiam, got powerful and went on a rampage to build the Edur empire.

As for Silchas, I'd peg him as too strong to outright kill. He drank far deeper from Tiam's blood than anyone, even Rake, and we've seen how powerful he is. The way I see it is that by drinking Tiam's blood, your natural traits are amplified, as well as being able to turn into a dragon at will. Silchas, having drunk the most, probably had his inherent abilities increased a lot more than others. Plus, I'd reckon Silchas is fast, given his fighting style which would require a lot of dexterity, and would likely be able to beat the hell out of Bloodeye with his fists had he known the attack was coming. He was nearly a god, and we've seen how powerful they can be (ie: Killy putting her fist through Bloodeye's forehead).

Just my two cents.

[Lucifer's Heaven]

Aptorian;173675 said:

Uhm... Rake and Ruin are ascendants, they were born powerfull.

Trake was already and ascendant or a first hero if you will, hence the immortality.

The only mortals, or ascendants for that matter, who hasn't passed on yet after death, are the ones that are pieces in the Gods game. Paran was saved by Oponn, Toc was saved by K'rul/Togg, Treach was needed to fill the hole Fener left, Heboric was needed to save the world, etc.

That doesn't answer the question though. They were born powerful, sure. So maybe they were born already Ascendents, and therefore are on their last life. But again, where is the line drawn? Again, what about the rest of the Tiste Andii? They were also mother darks direct children, unless someone is saying they were the offspring of the three Brothers Dark? So therefore, they are born Immortals. Does that still mean they need to die to ascend? Basically I'm trying to figure out who gets a second life. Caladan Brood has not died that we know of. Though that doesn't mean he hasn't, but he's definately an ascendent.

[Dark Mac]

I don't think everyone needs to die to become an ascendant. Dassem became Dessembrae without dying, and Paran didn't ascend until quite a while after he came back to life. Shadowthrone and Cotillion were special exceptions because of Shadow Night or whatever it was, and Treach needed to die to regain his sanity.

[Father Light]

ok draconean blood, ruin drank deeper than rake, as evidenced in part by his size.

however, i vaguely recall mention that the first tlan imass bone caster olar ethil was the largest of the dragons and literally dwarfed rake.

would this mean that the bonecaster drank of tiam? she is included in the tree. or would it mean that she merely had killed and taken a dragons skin?

this leads to a nebulous theory!! if she did drink then surely she must have drank deepest. if the bonecaster did not drink of tiam and accessed draconean form through wearing a skin (i base this on tlan shapeshifting being seemingly inextricably linked with their totem) then it is merely her power forced through the dragon skin that gives her her size.

if this is the case then perhaps the size/power of the dragon is not indicative of the depth of their drinking but is more indicative of power levels. should this be the case then ruin is more powerful as a character than rake or scabboy.

Maybe!!!

[Coldsnap]

I believe that Olar Ethil was an Imass Ascendant... perhaps the first mortal to ascend on Wu, and as well the first shaman/mage. I believe that Ethil did thus drink the deepest from Tiam. It is possible that Tiam allows certain prime ascendants of a race to drink from her based on her perceived understanding of their honor, integrity, bah, too much speculation here.

In DG we see how Ethil was watching the path of hands closely the whole time to ensure that nothing went wrong, and something is mentioned about how Imass have always been the custodians of order and Ethil, as the only ascendant, would be given some of the more important tasks in the fight against anarchy and chaos.

The imass themselves, though it was speculated that they destroyed the 'First' empire out of rage for them having taken the title First empire, performed this task to rid the world of an empire of soletaken and diver's. Likewise, in MOI, they are concerned with taking care of the undead KM and the Pannion Jagut.