[Coldsnap]

Hey guys,
Just doin a re-read of Gardens and Memories... ya know how you can pull that off now that you've read all of them a couple of times, plus with the aid of this forum and the analyses we're doing here...you can jump from book to book almost seamlessly because of the overarching plot line that permeates each novel.

Anyway, wondering about Great Ravens and Crone, the CG, and Kallor... the connections and timelines, i suppose. Crone mentions to the Alchemist in Gardens that she feeds on magic to elongate life, and that she's watched human affairs for a thousand years... which sounded long at the time, but now that we know how long some of the characters and races live... its really not long at all. If im wrong about the quote, or were assuming she lied, then so be it.

But if they really are born of the CG's body, wasn't he pulled down to answer the atrocities of Kallor, which were happening some hundred thousand years prior? And so, basically, im just wondering what you guys think about timelines and such...

Kallor's going crazy so these mages pull down the CG... but he falls badly and destroys a lot of what he lands on and just kinda lies there for millenia, nursing wounds that wont heal and going more and more insane. And Kallor keeps on doin what hes doin. During this time, the Great Ravens are borne from his flesh? Or were they Wu-born maggots that fed on him and became something more... either way, making them very old indeed, though i guess this could happened at any point while he was lying around in immense pain. And also during this time, the elder gods also get fed up with kallor and curse him. So what are the timelines of all this, if you guys have any guesses...

And also, was it the nameless ones that pulled down the CG.. and if so, at the orders of the Azath, or workin on their own??? Was kallor aware of the CG, were the Elder Gods aware of the CG, and on a truly unrelated subject: WHY THE HELL DOES BROOD TRUST KALLOR???

[Dragnipurake]

the 1000yr old thing is, i suppose, a 'GOTMism'. even the hounds were mentioned to be 'a thousand years' old.
the mages that brought down the CG are not related to the nameless ones, at least as far as we know from MT and MOI. from the latter's prologue, kallor was aware this was done to counter him. and, i am not sure if brood trusts kallor. he has him at his side because his military prowess should by now be incomparable.

[Dolorous Menhir]

To elaborate on Dragnipurake's answer:

The MoI prologue (shortly after the Fall) takes place 120,000 years before Burn's Sleep, and contains a reference to the creation of the Great Ravens as K'rul walks across devastated Korelri. Crone is supposed to be the oldest of the Great Ravens, and I don't think that means "the oldest currently living" but rather "the first Great Raven ever".

So, like many of the dates and timelines given in GotM, Crone's age of 1000 years should be considered wrong. This applies to other GotM info unfortunately, but I don't want to get the thread distracted by going into that.

The mages who called down the CG had nothing to do with the Nameless Ones that we know of. They were a Korelri defence force of sorts, who were forced to the desperate measure by the imminent threat of invasion by the Kallorean Empire. Though I will concede that the stupidity and total failure of their plan does suggest a connection to the Nameless Ones.

It's an interesting question, why was Kallor in such a position of trust with Brood? Brood may well have been around at the time of the Kallorean Empire after all - we don't know when his days travelling with Rake and T'riss took place, but it must have been long in the past. All I can offer is that Kallor has long long outlived the memory of who he was and what he did, and perhaps Brood had his own reasons to trust him.

[Bottle]

I thought this was quite interesting in relation to what occurred those next 120'000 years, and also for any timeline "discrepancies":

"Steven Erikson" said:

A few more things ... there was more than one chaining of the crippled god. The account that Kruppe reads has merged all of them into one (hence his comment about finding his grandmother's name in the list -- had he read further, he just might have). One of the things that always fascinated me in my readings of recorded people's histories has been the strange notion of time, especially the way it's sometimes compressed, other times stretched out... As a writer of fiction, I realised this was exceedingly useful, particularly in the way it could mislead. Yeah, I'm a mean bastard, ain't I just. Anyway, The Malazan Book of the Fallen is a compiled history, warts and all. It's not above brazen manipulation of events and facts, because, well, that's the nature of the beast. By this, do I mean it as a way of squirming out of things? No, you'd all never let me get off that easily. I just love the feel of an uncertain history, as all histories are. If none of you had any questions, then I'd be worried.

http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=2203

[Jheral]

Dolorous Menhir;171903 said:

To elaborate on Dragnipurake's answer:

The MoI prologue (shortly after the Fall) takes place 120,000 years before Burn's Sleep, and contains a reference to the creation of the Great Ravens as K'rul walks across devastated Korelri. Crone is supposed to be the oldest of the Great Ravens, and I don't think that means "the oldest currently living" but rather "the first Great Raven ever".

So, like many of the dates and timelines given in GotM, Crone's age of 1000 years should be considered wrong. This applies to other GotM info unfortunately, but I don't want to get the thread distracted by going into that.

The mages who called down the CG had nothing to do with the Nameless Ones that we know of. They were a Korelri defence force of sorts, who were forced to the desperate measure by the imminent threat of invasion by the Kallorean Empire. Though I will concede that the stupidity and total failure of their plan does suggest a connection to the Nameless Ones.

It's an interesting question, why was Kallor in such a position of trust with Brood? Brood may well have been around at the time of the Kallorean Empire after all - we don't know when his days travelling with Rake and T'riss took place, but it must have been long in the past. All I can offer is that Kallor has long long outlived the memory of who he was and what he did, and perhaps Brood had his own reasons to trust him.

Well, Kallor is supposedly a great warrior and military commander (but not exactly a good leader, for obvious reasons). I guess he thought he was worth keeping around for those qualities.

By the way, is there mention of how old he is, exactly? Brood, that is. I mean, his connection to Burn suggests, to me at least, that he's not that old, compared to others (Rake et al). Or maybe that's just my imagination.

Edit: I found this in Memories of Ice, Crone thinking to herself:

Memories of Ice, on p131-132, said:

Caladan Brood has the power - there in his arms and in that formidable hammer on his back - to shatter mountains. An exaggeration? A low flight over the broken peaks east of Laederon Plateau is proof enough of his younger, mor precipitous days...

It does suggest that he's not that old, doesn't it?

[Dolorous Menhir]

It doesn't suggest anything about his age. It's not as if we know when the mountain range was created. We don't know how old he is. All we can say for sure is that he is at least 1164, since Burn gave him the hammer.

[tjc52]

Well, we know he cant be all that old, as he's got Barghast blood, as he must be substantially younger than the T'lan Imass, as the Barghast are whats left of the Imass that didn't make it to the ritual.

[Aptorian]

Brood is part Barghast and part Human, so we can assume that he's not older than the barghast and human races. Say, 200-300.000 years at the most. It's a bit hard to say since we don't know how long after the ritual the Imass started evolving into Barghast and Humans.

My personal feeling is that he's probably younger than a hundred millenia but isn't there some mention of him being a traveling companion of Rakes on one of the Andii's journeys?

[Trotts]

I think its mentioned that Brood, Rake, and Envy were like the cool kids backpacking through the world and whatnot.

[Bottle]

Poor Brood, travelling for millennia as a 'third wheel', I pity him.

[Abyss]

Brood-dude was around long ago enough to have created a geographic formation...we would be remiss in just accepting that Brood has Bhargast blood...

It's entirely possible that the Bhargast tribes have BROOD blood.

In case that was too subtle: Brood could be so old that he's an original Imass/T3 cross-breed, from before an entire tribe/tribes of Bhargast grew out of those matches.

Or even older, he could be T3/Eres.

But back on topic, the Great Ravens apparently first showed up post the Fall. There's an entire period of history from BEFORE them, including Kallor's Empire, which was only destroyed post the Fall (MoI prologue). Thus, there are any number of Ascendants/Gods older than Crow.

- Abyss, has learned to take nothing at face value in SE books.

[Clip]

Abyss;172028 said:

Or even older, he could be T3/Eres.

That is actually a very interesting thought. The Ere are what I believe to be the precursors of T'Lan Imass, and therefore Humans. So a cross between Eres and TTT is the only possible cross involving Eres.

Here's another thought: Brood is the son of Burn and an unknown person. perhaps a TTT. Remember that Brood probably isn't human, so it can be from before humans showed up in strength.

[Ivan the terrible]

Just for kicks...but perhaps Brood ain't as much of an out an out 'good guy' as we have been led to believe?

[Abyss]

I dunno - on the list of likely not-as-good-as-they-seem peeps, Brood didn't exactly scream double-agent in MoI.

Unless of course, he sees Burn's wake-up as necessary and decides he doesn't care who gets wiped out in the process...

- Abyss, cue suspenseful music....

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I would be shocked and appalled were Caladan Brood to suddenly turn around and be working for the forces of evil.

[Abyss]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;172103 said:

I would be shocked and appalled were Caladan Brood to suddenly turn around and be working for the forces of evil.

Yes, that's the idea.

- Abyss, mwa-ha-ha-ha-hee-hee-wheeee...