[blewin]

Been actually discussing about Seren and Trull's love in the MT forum:
http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=6860

and people started coming up with other comparisons, like Apsalar and Crokus, and Pearl and Lostara (this one we didn't get to say much on as it'd be a spoiler). I think it'd make an interesting topic. Can anyone else think of any other couples? what's the difference between them? which one has the possibility of getting together and why? which love with which couples strikes you the most and why?

to start, (since I've already commented on Trull and Seren) I'll say a little on Pearl and Lostara. Seems like Lostara's lost interest in Pearl long ago. I didn't pick up that Pearl still loved the woman till after the siege in TBH. The guy surely acted like he knew everything when he was around Lostara, all high up there and flirty, maybe that was why she didn't realise (or did she?) that he was deeply in love with her.

[Aptorian]

Possible souples and future affairs I remember discussed (I'm adding even the most unlikely)

Apsalar and Crokus
Apsalar and paran
Apsalar and Cotillion
Crokus and that hooker that worked for bidithal
Lostara and Cotillion
Lostara and Quick Ben
Toc the younger/AnasToc and Envy
Karsa and Dew (ewh)
Bottle and the Eres
Bottle and Nether (thats the girl right)
And of course my favorite couple Pust and Morgara.

[Dag]

Pearl and Lostara Yil are my favorite couple. There is something natural - and above all, plausible - about the way their relationship begins and develops over time, and even to its end there is some kind of tragical logic.

I can't say the same about the most other couples.

What Paran and Tattersail have is for me more like a one-night-stand - if there really were any deep feelings between them as we are led to believe in the second part of GotM or in MoI, then I must have missed them somehow.

WJ and Korlat: I perceived their relationship as something based rather on mutual respect and need than love. I found all those little sequences hinting at their lovemaking a little bit awkward. They lack the necessary passion that usually goes along with this "at-first-sight" kind of love.

Crokus/Cutter and Apsalar: Well, I got lost there. It definitely lacks a plausible beginning, and even though I understand Apsalar in many ways, I can't understand motives behind the majority of Cutter's actions. I mean, I like them both as characters, the way they individually develop and grow through the whole mess is described in an excellent way, but when it comes to their relationship... You know this toy children usually have to learn how to distinguish shapes? The one consisting of plastic/wooden balls, cubes, stars etc. and a box with correspondingly shaped holes on all sides? Well, comprehending the C/A relationship is for me like trying to squeeze a cube trough a round hole. I even tried to hit it with a hammer, but it still doesn't fit...

And before this develops into a 1000-word essay, I just want to mention Iskaral Pust and Mogora. They are great. Beyond love or hate - I guess that's what marriage is about.

[Battalion]

What about Nightchill and Skullcrusher? They were lovers right? We didn't see a great deal of them, but that must have been a crazy relationship.

[Keruli]

Pearl and Lostara. I don't recall much of their passages. But wasn't that rather uneven in terms level of affection? Pearl was the one that was hopelessly in love, but couldn't reveal it to Lostara cause she wasn't anywhere near as involved in him. Had he told her, she would have fled. I never really got why Lostara hung with Pearl, I thought her interest in him went up and down with her general lust, and that she never really loved him.
Or do I really need a reread?

Re: Nightchill and Skullcrusher. My guess is that it was Nigthchill that sought up Skullcrusher in part because she liked him and in part to battle the curse. They probably were lovers, and given the time they spent together I think there was love too (the amount of love an Elder goddess is capable of..?). But I'm convinced Skullcrusher never learned Nightchills true identity. I think of Skullcrusher's love as an adoring almost childlike kind of love for some reason. Isn't their relationship even described as him following her around?

[Cold Iron]

what about kalam and his horse-riding, ship jumping lady friend? (name anyone?)

[Battalion]

Keruli;169114 said:

Pearl and Lostara. I don't recall much of their passages. But wasn't that rather uneven in terms level of affection? Pearl was the one that was hopelessly in love, but couldn't reveal it to Lostara cause she wasn't anywhere near as involved in him. Had he told her, she would have fled. I never really got why Lostara hung with Pearl, I thought her interest in him went up and down with her general lust, and that she never really loved him.
Or do I really need a reread?

Re: Nightchill and Skullcrusher. My guess is that it was Nigthchill that sought up Skullcrusher in part because she liked him and in part to battle the curse. They probably were lovers, and given the time they spent together I think there was love too (the amount of love an Elder goddess is capable of..?). But I'm convinced Skullcrusher never learned Nightchills true identity. I think of Skullcrusher's love as an adoring almost childlike kind of love for some reason. Isn't their relationship even described as him following her around?

Yeah I get the impression of the puppy following the master kind of thing too. Maybe she went with him so he could be her guardian in the earthly world. Who better to watch your back than a giant who can do magic, and who's so hard his name is Scullcrusher?

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what about kalam and his horse-riding, ship jumping lady friend? (name anyone?)

On that bird from the ship, Cold Iron, is that not Minala? The one defending the throne? I always get the lesser people in the books mixed up.

[Cold Iron]

Yah Minala sounds good to me. I like her, girl's gotta give a good chase, y'know. No free ride with me!

And I miss the six legged demon thing with two dicks. was it greyfrog? wanted to hump the pregnant whore, gotta love him.... nice

[Keruli]

Yup, Kalam had a brief encounter with a woman named Minala. There was a little spark there, but it ended abruptly. Partly because Kalam had business and had to go, IIRC, and partly cause Minala wasn't in the mood to love someone then I think.

Anyone get some vibes from Trull and Minala in tBH? They've been working closely together for some time now, Trull defending her Shadow children. He's the only man (of flesh and blood) there, she's the only woman... trapped in a cave together...

[Cold Iron]

nah, trull is totally that other chicks. umm... didn't trull have another chick in MT?

i want a toc/envy love scene!

[Lancelot]

Cold Iron;169128 said:

trull is totally that other chicks. umm... didn't trull have another chick in MT?

Yeah Seren pedac(sp?)

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Anyone get some vibes from Trull and Minala in tBH?

No Minala is just glad that trull is there,because he stops all of Minala's "Children" from getting sliced an diced by iccy and the naughty Edur.

[Cold Iron]

yeah i was thinking seren but then seren and big brother beddict came to mind and yeah, trull and seren had moments. good ones.

i agree about minala, shes so kalams

[Dag]

Could it be that Minala was taking this thing too seriously, you know, like "married, with 1300 children"? Kalam doesn't strike me like a guy who would willingly settle down for a big happy family.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, yeah. That's why he ditched her in HoC and ran off to do some errands for Cotillion.

[Bottle]

I really liked the whole Gruntle and Stonny thing. Though it wasn't really a romantic relationship as such, it hinted at a strong bond between them. It was portrayed subtly, and really well in my opinion. Especially when Gruntle came to her rescue in the siege of Capustan, carrying her to safety and all that. Made me feel fuzzy inside :D

[Falco]

Blend and Picker?

[Dag]

Bottle;169215 said:

I really liked the whole Gruntle and Stonny thing. Though it wasn't really a romantic relationship as such (...)

I really liked the whole Stonny and Nektara thing. Though it wasn't really a romantic relationship as such...

[Brys Beddict]

Dag;169068 said:

Crokus/Cutter and Apsalar: Well, I got lost there. It definitely lacks a plausible beginning, and even though I understand Apsalar in many ways, I can't understand motives behind the majority of Cutter's actions. I mean, I like them both as characters, the way they individually develop and grow through the whole mess is described in an excellent way, but when it comes to their relationship... You know this toy children usually have to learn how to distinguish shapes? The one consisting of plastic/wooden balls, cubes, stars etc. and a box with correspondingly shaped holes on all sides? Well, comprehending the C/A relationship is for me like trying to squeeze a cube trough a round hole. I even tried to hit it with a hammer, but it still doesn't fit...

For me, when I look at Cutter's motives, I look back to what happened to him. He was being stalked by Apsalar, who had already killed Chert. However, when he finally meets her, he sees someone lost and alone, maybe someone he can relate to. He's only a theif and Rallick Nom made him realize this when he was told to kill the thoughts of robbing Councilman Orr's estate. Later, he feels her position even more because he gets even more isolated with his Tyrant-possessed uncle getting blown up by a half-insane sapper with explosives. Add in to the fact that Crokus is still pretty young, and you got someone who's realized he's just a petty theif, and his uncle just died. He reaches out and finds Apsalar, who accepts him and cares for him and is generally in the same boat as him. She just realizes that she's an ascendant with a bloody past and all of Cotillions skills. What else is she supposed to do other than embrace what she has, some crazy good knife skills. Her love for Crokus is shown by her trying to protect him from her job choice. She just wants him to live a simple life but he chooses to try and get close to her by picking up assassin as a career also, and cutting some deals with Cotillion - the same guy that possessed her in the first place and robbed her of a childhood - to get good at it. In the end, Apsalar is driven from Crokus and he goes all gloomy cause of it.

Overall, there's some tragedy to their separation, it's just that events at the time made everything difficult.

Sorry for the giant wall-o'-text, but it's kinda 12:30 where I be, and I'm too tired to try separating that into paragraphs.

[Dag]

@Brys
Thanks for this assessment, never mind the paragraphs...

So, all nice and well, but even if I take up your line of argumentation, it still stirrs the question - if Apsalar is really tormented by her past and is (at least in the beginning) trying to escape from it, why for Hood's sake would Crokus choose to become an assassin? It is like holding a mirror in front of her face or rubbing those unpleasant facts she wishes to forget right under her nose. Yes, Crokus is YOUNG, but he doesn't strike me as STUPID. So I still don't see a logic in his decission...

And also this "meeting-a-lost-and-alone-girl-in-wilderness..." I can imagne it triggered some protective instincts in him - Crokus is, after all, a man, and Sorry/Apsalar was at that time a demsel in distress - but love...? Love so deep, that he would throw away all that he is just to get her attention..?

Naaah, I can sometimes be pathetically romantic, but this romance... It just doesn't sound convincing enough to me.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't see the confusion. Apsalar is a beautiful woman. Crokus is a young man. He did something stupid in order to stay with her. Makes perfect sense to me.