[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;169162 said:

...
So you would natural assume that

order = hive
chaos = free individuals..

Not necessarily. There's not really any reason to assume that just because a race evolves a hive mind for whatever reason, that they aren't chaotic or vice versa orderly individuals

But more to the point, who says there is anything chaotic about the KC? Sure, there's the whole death-cry-MD-entropy thing, but that was a last second oh-crap-we're-dead-taking-you-with-us-punk thing.

I suspect the order thing comes from Ganath's last second comment that the KN are particularly ordered. Their conflict came from refusing to subsume their power (and i assume their individual identities) to the Matrons.

Dolorous Menhir;169162 said:

...I would still like to see someone actually provide some evidence from the books that the KCNR are a race of individuals. Perhaps it's in Kallor's monologue on the KCCM history?

The only living KCNR we've seen didn't say a single thing, they just attacked the nearest character (Karsa & Ganath). Not much to go on there are as far as social structure is concerned.

I agree there are a lot of blanks. Pretty sure Kallor in MoI is our only useful source.

- Abyss, fond of organized chaos.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kage-za;169164 said:

As for the side note on MD and the Matron Death Cry/black hole, I do think this is somewhat distorted. However the MD/Kashan vortex sounds very much like what is chasing Draconus's wagon inside of Dragnipur.

Um, that's exactly what it is. The Matron Death Spell is the reason Dragnipur was needed.

[vaiski]

Dolorous Menhir said:

I would still like to see someone actually provide some evidence from the books that the KCNR are a race of individuals. Perhaps it's in Kallor's monologue on the KCCM history?

Kallor says ".. these new children were not as tractable as the Matrons were conditioned to expect among their brood - more explicitly, the Short-Tails would not surrender or merge their magical talent with their mothers'."

It's not much, just that they arent as hivey as KCCM.

[Clip]

Dolorous Menhir;169179 said:

Um, that's exactly what it is. The Matron Death Spell is the reason Dragnipur was needed.

As we've heard Draconus say in Dragnipur, KG has always been chased by chaos, before the KCCM/NR showed up, and before Dragnipur was created, and that Dragnipur "protects" the gate into KG, not Mommy D herself.

The KCCM spell targeted MD, not the gate into KG. Chaos is not the "apsect" of the KCCM, they just use it. Chaos is the first Elemental Force, from long before anything actaully ordered appeared (as in life).

Either way this thread is about where Iccy gets his power from, not the KCCM, Mommy D and Icariums family tree, there already is a thread for that.

In my opinion Iccy's power is too specialized to belong to any one species. It appears to be that Icarium's own rage is all the power that he uses. He takes the power from himself, not from some outside source.

[Set'alahd Crool]

I'm falling in with the Icarium's-power-is-his-own crowd. I now believe the chaotic infection (Cotilion's words) that causes discontinuity does nothing more. When enraged the infection kicks in, Icarium's mind blanks and all restraint disappears. With no control, his power is unleashed rather than wielded.
The angrier he gets, the greater the unleashing.

[BridgeBurner]

I think linking Icarium to a KCCM Matron based on a keening sound they both make is farfetched. Especially with this Matron we saw in MoI...

A simpler explanation of both of them making that sound is that at the time they make it, both of them are in a crazy state of mind.

Apart from that, even SE is keeping mating sort of logical. Dragons can mate with people because they share a human form. Jaghut can mate with Karsa.

KCCM/KCNR are still lizards. Jaghut are mammals. Or so I assume.

[Trotts]

What if the Kaychan were big into the genetic tinkering and made some test tube Jhag babies?

[Dolorous Menhir]

For all we know, the KCCM could have created the Jaghut race in test tubes.

[Abyss]

BridgeBurner;169248 said:

... Dragons can mate with people because they share a human form. ...

Actually, i'm pretty sure it's the reverse of that.

- Abyss, waits to see who doesn't follow that...

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss;169941 said:

Actually, i'm pretty sure it's the reverse of that.

- Abyss, waits to see who doesn't follow that...

*shrugs* They still share a form though.

But you got me there. Earned you a rep.

[Aptorian]

Abyss;169941 said:

Actually, i'm pretty sure it's the reverse of that.

- Abyss, waits to see who doesn't follow that...

Try and imagine if sukuhl ankhadu tried raping Udinaas in her draconean form, man that's enough to give any man nightmares.

[Abyss]

Aptorian;170080 said:

Try and imagine if sukuhl ankhadu tried raping Udinaas in her draconean form, man that's enough to give any man nightmares.

Well, most men... i'm not so sure about Rake... or RodeoRanch...

But Sukul is soletaken half EG half Tiste and Udi was piggybacking a Wyval... i'm actually ref'ing that as far as we know, there are no soletaken dragons.

- Abyss, is positive there's an internut site dedicated to that sort of thing...

[sphish]

What are you talking about, there being no soletaken dragons?

Korlat and Orfantas are both referred to, by Korlat, as Soletaken in MoI; and, both have the soletaken form of dragons, as read in the aforementioned book.

Maybe I missed something else you were quoting this from.

[Paran]

Well, all these KCCM and KCNR thoughts bring back something valid (not them being his parents - there's nothing reptilian in his appearance) - where did Icarium learn to make those time mechanisms? Afterall, the end of MoI was the "Year of the Moon's Tears", so he must have some access to a time aspected warren, and it was hypothesized by someone in some book (tBH I believe) that he spent time with the KCNR. Thus, being the son of an extrememly powerful Jaghut Wizard as well as a TTT (as per Aramalla in HoC) and being able to access some form of the KCNR magic, means that when he is in a rage (like Karsa) he is able to hone his will into a warren that possibly accesses all the previous powers and thus he is the Apocalypse itself!

A bit convoluted, but I think Ic overed it all.

[Set'alahd Crool]

sphish;170228 said:

What are you talking about, there being no soletaken dragons?

Korlat and Orfantas are both referred to, by Korlat, as Soletaken in MoI; and, both have the soletaken form of dragons, as read in the aforementioned book.

Maybe I missed something else you were quoting this from.

What 'byss means is that there are no dragons who are soletaken. The examples you gave are Tiste Andii soletaken, as are Rake and Ruin. Scabby's Edur, Osric's liosan, Olar Ethil is Imass.
The only soletaken eleint we know that don't actually belong to another race are either elder gods or mongrels; Dawn, Dapple and Dusk, Envy and Spite.

As far as we know there is no pureblood dragon that is soletaken.

[Mael]

One more interesting note. When Monok Ochem tried to defend himself agaist Icarium his body was reformed and fused with the Throne of shadow. Just another thing to support the "Icarium's magic affects the forces binding matter just like the KCCM/KCNR magic" theory.

[Trotts]

Another piece in the "Icarium is a test-tube baby made by the Kaychan" vein of thought.