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Fires of Heaven

#1 User is offline   Coldsnap 

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 10:44 PM

Im reading the Icarium's lineage thread (YOU GUYS ROCK) but thought this might be better on its own: what warren is Icarium employing? I've never heard it mentioned in the books by those facing him or those speaking of him... i thought Quick would mention it, but i don think he does...it really doesn't seem cold-oriented jaghut omtose phallack... but then, im not sure how that one manifests anyway in that it can swing from glacier formation to making finnests to trap energies, and then theres Raest's crazy tirade. Ive never heard of this kind of keening noise being admitted either by any other creatures

I think to understand his warren or whatever force he employs other than insanely good sword skills would aid in us understanding him better... if it is his own private warren, it would hint that either he does in fact have a TTT mother, as certain ascendants of TTT can generate their own warren from within...but maybe not... or i also wonder as well what it was the Nameless Ones did to Icarium in fashioning him to be some sort of weapon. Did they just take him memory, or ya think they gave him some powers too.. which would be crazy to further empower a guy who almost killed an Azath...

So what do we think... are we seeing a jaghut's power, a jaghut/TTT crazy personal warren... or all of that plus what the Nameless ones did to him too? Or does it hint of what his mother might be, other than TTT...(Kilamandaros bein my favorite option... you could feel the steam between em in that Reaper's gale prologue, lol)

I also wonder, did the Nameless ones become involved with him only following the wounding of the Azath? I figured maybe they just knocked out his memory capacity when they realized he was gonna kill their 'god'... what do you think the timeline of their interaction with icarium is?
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#2 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 11:13 PM

I don't think Icarium has changed since the wounding of the realm. He's retained some long term memory, he remembers the small things he witnesses but the rage shuts off his short term memory.

I don't think the NO has done anything to Iccy to make him into a weapon. The NO has used him in the way you use a cluster bomb. It's not a very precise or controlable weapon but you're pretty sure you're going to get the job done. Just guide him in the right direction and make sure to push the right button and everything else in a big area will also be taken out.

I don't think we can connect Iccys power, if you wanna call it that, to anything or anyone specific. It could be Iccy was originally as powerfull as say Raest or other top level Tyrants, this could explain how he was able to wound an azath. At least an old, strained azath anyway. But Iccys memory loss makes him uncertain of his potential, like a memory block keeping him from achnowledging his potential.

The full extend of his power would then be expressed in the physical rage that over takes him. Remember, of what we've heard of the Jaghut, you REALLY dont want to push them. A Jaghuts rage is said to be truly terrifying. I think Iccy has inherited this trait only the taint in him has made him unable to control this.

Either that or the KCCM dosed him with gammarays and created the Incredible JaHULK :D
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#3 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

Hmm, maybe, since Icarium is part Toblakai, he has his own warren?
I know this belongs to the crazy theory thread, but I'd like to mention it here anyway.
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#4 User is offline   paladin 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 12:51 AM

icarium reminds me of chewbacca
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#5 User is offline   Trotts 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 01:05 AM

Seems more like Icarium was a powerful beast from the getgo, rather than being warren powered.

btw

Quote

Incredible JaHULK


I love that so much hahahahha.

Icarium: "You won't like me when I'm angry, rar!!"
Azath House: "Uh oh"
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#6 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 01:50 PM

I thought TB suggested there was something of chaos to what Iccy can do. it doesn't seem to be a 'simple' use of any warren we've seen - the 'he's his own warren' theory seems to hold some weight. But then, so much of his history, like the high-tech timepieces, is a mystery

As for the NOs, they've basically spent generations loosely directing Iccy where they want him to be via his keepers (Veed, Mappo, unnamed T3 and human) and then triggering him. By speculative example, that city he wiped out after his keep was hit by an arrow... wanna bet it was an NO or agent thereof who shot the arrow?

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#7 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 02:31 PM

That was just an accident though. The town guard fired a "shot across the bow" to warn the pair away, and the arrow ricocheted and killed the companion. Then Icarium laid waste to the area, the unfortunate guard no doubt among the dead.

I would hesitate to attribute this chain of events to the Nameless Ones. Nothing we know of suggests they are capable of this level of foresight. Very much the opposite, I would think.
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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 02:40 PM

Dolorous Menhir;168504 said:

That was just an accident though. The town guard fired a "shot across the bow" to warn the pair away, and the arrow ricocheted and killed the companion. Then Icarium laid waste to the area, the unfortunate guard no doubt among the dead.

I would hesitate to attribute this chain of events to the Nameless Ones. Nothing we know of suggests they are capable of this level of foresight. Very much the opposite, I would think.


They WIPED OUT Mappo's village to secure him as a new keeper, and then kept him in the job for millenia or so.

Then they released a crazy shadow lizard vampire d'ivers to get him out of the way. And they turned eleven high/arch/major/badass mages and priests into d'ivers poo to do it. And they had their gral lackey standing by as a replacement.

So i'm thinking a little trick shot with an arrow, the details of which are probably fudged in time since it's not like there were any witnesses once Iccy got done, is not beyond them. Plus i mean... one warning arrow just happens to hit a rock, and then just happens to hit a bystander in the neck? Was the archer on a grassy knoll at the time? :D

It's just theory, but i think the odds are decent.

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#9 User is offline   Trotts 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 04:09 PM

Quote

Plus i mean... one warning arrow just happens to hit a rock, and then just happens to hit a bystander in the neck? Was the archer on a grassy knoll at the time?


Gotta agree, its just too much to be a random accident. The Nameless Ones prolly just went out of their way to spread the rumour that it was a guard firing one off by accident.
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#10 User is offline   BridgeBurner 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 05:26 PM

Abyss;168508 said:

They WIPED OUT Mappo's village to secure him as a new keeper, and then kept him in the job for millenia or so.

Then they released a crazy shadow lizard vampire d'ivers to get him out of the way. And they turned eleven high/arch/major/badass mages and priests into d'ivers poo to do it. And they had their gral lackey standing by as a replacement.

So i'm thinking a little trick shot with an arrow, the details of which are probably fudged in time since it's not like there were any witnesses once Iccy got done, is not beyond them. Plus i mean... one warning arrow just happens to hit a rock, and then just happens to hit a bystander in the neck? Was the archer on a grassy knoll at the time? :D

It's just theory, but i think the odds are decent.

- Abyss, a betting man.



Although I think Abyss is right on NO ethics, and has a good point, the arrow could still have been pulled and/or pushed by Oponn.

The chances that a lone arrow would hit Icarium's keeper, aren't that much lower than a guy surviving sitting on a helmet with a piece of exploding Moranth ammo under it... :p
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#11 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 05:34 PM

So...it's more likely that Oponn and/or the Nameless Idiots manipulated the arrow to kill the companion? Rather than it just being chance?
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#12 User is offline   BridgeBurner 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 05:52 PM

Dolorous Menhir;168564 said:

So...it's more likely that Oponn and/or the Nameless Idiots manipulated the arrow to kill the companion? Rather than it just being chance?


What I was saying is that chances are about equal (either Oponn helping killing the keeper or NI making up the death of that keeper to cover up a massacre on their part).

A plot like this would fit in the NI's ruthless MO though.

So basically yes.
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#13 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 05:55 PM

Bridgeburner raised Oponn - not me. I stick with the theory that the NOs wanted that city razed for whatever reason and set up the situation. And that they've been doing similar things for a long, long time.

Which leads one to wonder how many of Icarium's massacres were the result of NO manipulation as opposed to 'just' his temper.

- Abyss...
NOs: That city is an offence to the world.
ICCY: Truly, i would investigate this place and learn of its...
NOs: Ooo, look, a telemarketing call centre!
ICCY: ICARIUM SMASH! SHRED!! DESTROY!!!
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#14 User is offline   Tiger_sword 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 07:16 PM

I very much doubt that it was oppon. It was a long time ago (not sure how old the twins are but i guess they are post first empire from MT) plus oppon is a kind of push-pull force only making slight movements. Although they could have pushed the arrow they would have known the concequences (i.e. Mega destructo Icarium) and that seams a bit strong an action for the gods of chance IMHO.

As for his power we have seen that madness tends to bring about chaos and visa versa (i.e. Hairlock in GotM). Hence i believe that his power has become more chaotic the further into madness he falls

Prehaps the NO's know this and thus keep him in perpetual insanity in order to use him as a weapon.
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#15 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 07:30 PM

Tiger_sword;168605 said:

I very much doubt that it was oppon. It was a long time ago (not sure how old the twins are but i guess they are post first empire from MT) plus oppon is a kind of push-pull force only making slight movements. Although they could have pushed the arrow they would have known the concequences (i.e. Mega destructo Icarium) and that seams a bit strong an action for the gods of chance IMHO.

As for his power we have seen that madness tends to bring about chaos and visa versa (i.e. Hairlock in GotM). Hence i believe that his power has become more chaotic the further into madness he falls

Prehaps the NO's know this and thus keep him in perpetual insanity in order to use him as a weapon.


Really? My impression of Oponn is that they are like Chaos and Mayhem. They'd pretty much let anything escalate into total carnage if they could, only those pesky ascendants don't like them destroying things. Seeing as the lady and sissy boy are somewhat of a push over, they don't really want too much heat.

They'd love to push Iccy over the edge.

Iccy isn't insane, he has a mental block or something and he has a problem with his temper... probably stemming from father issues :D - But he isn't insane.

Hell, Pust would be the God of Chaos if Insanity was the link to Chaos.
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#16 User is offline   Coldsnap 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 09:03 PM

ya know, what with TTT healing powers bein what they are... unless thats just a blood-oil/ottaral thing that the Teblor have... it would have to be a PERFECTLY placed arrow, ricochet or not to like, pierce four lungs and kill what we have to believe is a true TTT from way back then... massive, super fast, super strong and what not! I think we could entertain the idea the Nameless Ones could have set up such an amazing feat as a single arrow killing a true blood TTT warrior...

Although the whole story could have been twisted over time, as someone above mentioned anyway. But killing true blood TTT's doesnt sound easy, that's for sure.
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#17 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 09:10 PM

Working with the theory somebody really wanted the TTT dead and gone.

It doesnt sound unlikely If say an ascendants will guided the arrow, if it was coated in poison or if it was a arrow with a warren attached (Like iccys own dragon killing ones).

Hell the arrow could by accident have hit the TTT in the eye.

Still I think this topic is really out there in the Crazy theory area. The guy died, I don't think we're supposed to put so much more into a story bit that had such little room.
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#18 User is offline   BridgeBurner 

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 09:11 PM

Aptorian;168611 said:

Really? My impression of Oponn is that they are like Chaos and Mayhem. They'd pretty much let anything escalate into total carnage if they could, only those pesky ascendants don't like them destroying things. Seeing as the lady and sissy boy are somewhat of a push over, they don't really want too much heat.

They'd love to push Iccy over the edge.


Exactly my point. Thanks, Apt.

If Oponn can make a guy survive sitting on a helmet with heavy explosives under it, they surely can make a stray arrow hit a target.

This doesn't mean I am convinced that happened. Just that it's just as likely as Abyss's theory, when a chance factor is involved
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#19 User is offline   James Hetfield 

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 01:43 AM

Back to what powers Iccy has, Jaghut for sure, perhaps some TTT. In DG Mappo and Icarium are talking about warrens whe he states:
"It has the feel of Kurald Galain, that is all. The feel of dark. It is not Omtose Phellack nor Tellan. Not Starvald Demelain. I know of no other warrens."
"Nor I."
If he has other powers besides OP it would have to be an Elder Warren, due to his age. I don't see him using either of those so my guess is something unique to him alone.
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#20 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 15 March 2007 - 06:51 AM

James Hetfield;168729 said:

Back to what powers Iccy has, Jaghut for sure, perhaps some TTT. In DG Mappo and Icarium are talking about warrens whe he states:
"It has the feel of Kurald Galain, that is all. The feel of dark. It is not Omtose Phellack nor Tellan. Not Starvald Demelain. I know of no other warrens."
"Nor I."
If he has other powers besides OP it would have to be an Elder Warren, due to his age. I don't see him using either of those so my guess is something unique to him alone.


That is the scene where they are talking about how the Blackwoodboles were transportet to 7C and into the temple. They are testing the air and even though they think it's KG they aren't sure. In reality it could just aswell be KE since the Edur seem to have a fondness for that stuff.

But Iccy's memory is shot, certainly should know more warrens. He's quite a scholar and it's reasonable to believe that he once knew of all the forces of the holds. We know he has seen Kurald Thyrlann. Probably he's also seen Kurald Emurhlan, that Gamelon Demon magic, along with old death aspects.
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