[Lucifer's Heaven]

I do remember either Iccy or Mappo stating about one of the D'ivers trackin them in the desert "it has taken a blood spilling form", though he didn't elaborate on wether that was D'ivers only. Also it was said about the First Empires ritual, that they used it as the other paths to becoming a shapeshifter wer becoming too dangerous. Heboric when possessed of his enhanced sight, said "they are not lass, they are born" in response to Felisin asking how shapeshifters are created. We know this is one way of doing it, butit seems there are others (like drinking Tiam's blood)

[Abyss]

Altho' i generally agree with you IH, that there seems to be a link between the failed First Empire Ritual and d'ivers, there are some question marks. And this by way of lack of information, not necessarily any hint to the contrary.

Mogora for example. And now that i think about it, i can't recall anything linking Gryllen to the FE either.

I can only think of Ryllandaras and Dessibelackis that were named and ID'd beyond 'd'ivers trying to eat someone in DG' with a definite First Empire link.

- Abyss, thinks d'ivers would do an awesome conga-line.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I can't think of an explicit link between the First Empire and Gryllen, but he is a powerful and unpleasant D'ivers from Seven Cities who enjoys a mythical reputation. All characteristics shared by Ryllandaras - so I would guess Gryllen was a First Empire survivor too.

Non-First Empire D'ivers - The Pack, the God of the Jheck in MT. (Although conquered by a First Empire colony, I'm assuming the Jheck deity predates the Letherii presence in the area).

[Abyss]

Actually, i think the Pack does have a First Empire link, probably as one of the few FE d'ivers that made it through the gate before the Imass bonecaster sealed it. But one way or the other, i suppose we can agree that the Pack dates back to that time.

Hence, i don't think we've seen a d'ivers we can state is a post FE survivor. Tho based on the finale on the PoH in DG, it certainly seemed that there were a lot of them out there, so anything is possible.

- Abyss, wonders whether you call a fish d'ivers a scubad'ivers.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;178260 said:

I can't think of an explicit link between the First Empire and Gryllen, but he is a powerful and unpleasant D'ivers from Seven Cities who enjoys a mythical reputation. All characteristics shared by Ryllandaras - so I would guess Gryllen was a First Empire survivor too.

Non-First Empire D'ivers - The Pack, the God of the Jheck in MT. (Although conquered by a First Empire colony, I'm assuming the Jheck deity predates the Letherii presence in the area).

I believe that there are many paths to becoming a Soletaken but ALL of the D'ivers are the result of the failed first empire ritual.

It was stated in MT that the ritual was not confined to the First Empire and did in fact affect its colonies. The Soletaken Jheck are the result of the ritual's effect on the Letherii Colony and were drivin out into the northern wastes by the survivors unaffected by said Ritual (or maybe by the Bentract T'lan Imass). I believe this was stated by B'nagga in his musings near the end of the book when they are in the final push into Letheras.

"The Pack" is another lizard cat D'ivers (can't remember the name, T'rol something?) like the one released in BH to chase down Icarium and Mappo. It most likely got drivin out or fled with the Jheck and ended up being worshipped as thier god before it was eventually imprisioned in the Azath. It is more then likely that dessembelakis created more then one of these and i believe it may have even been stated as such in BH but can't remember.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;178375 said:

I believe that there are many paths to becoming a Soletaken but ALL of the D'ivers are the result of the failed first empire ritual.

Given the massive number of D'ivers on the Path of Hands, and the rate at which they died, I find it hard to accept that they all derive from one human disaster that happened tens of thousands of years ago.

[Coldsnap]

And what about Bute? He became soletaken with the aid of some elixir that the RathKrul gave him, although soletaken sparrowhawk seems kinda lame.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;178379 said:

Given the massive number of D'ivers on the Path of Hands, and the rate at which they died, I find it hard to accept that they all derive from one human disaster that happened tens of thousands of years ago.

While I also believe that D'ivers have more origins than just the First Empire's mass ritual, keep in mind that the ritual ran amok, claiming large chunks of entire cities. That could have meant millions of D'ivers and Soletaken. The T'lan Imass cleaned up what they could, but they couldn't get everything. So if even a few thousand survived ...

As well, I don't have the books handy for a quote, but the Jheck are clearly identified in Midnight Tides as being First Empire remnants. The line being something like "We know them today as the Jheck," and I think it may have been the Ceda talking to Brys about the fall of the First Empire.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Fairly sure the Jheck are also referenced elsewhere as a tribe annexed by the First Empire. Though the point about them being Soletaken because of the FE destruction ritual does seem decisive.

[Abyss]

kmmontandon;178404 said:

... keep in mind that the ritual ran amok, claiming large chunks of entire cities. That could have meant millions of D'ivers and Soletaken. ....

Exactly.
And we saw how many D'ivers in DG - maybe 20, as listed in the Wiki?
And the PoH was pulling them in, or we may not have even seen that many.

So imnsho, while anything is possible, so is the First Empire only option.

- Abyss, d'oesn't d'ebate d'iverse d'ivers, d'ammit!

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;178379 said:

Given the massive number of D'ivers on the Path of Hands, and the rate at which they died, I find it hard to accept that they all derive from one human disaster that happened tens of thousands of years ago.

How many people constituted the First Empire? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? A million?

Even if 0.1% became D'ivers out of a million that is 1000 D'ivers. Also keep in mind that the path of hands was beset by both D'ivers and Soletaken. So if even 1% of the population successfully survived the Ritual and subsequent slaughter by the T'lan Imass, that is 10,000 soletaken.

There were a lot of both in the deadhouse, and there were a lot who were smart enough (or retained enough of thier human consciousness) to stay away. It took an azath, Icarium and a Moranth Munition to destroy the ones who showed up so it's not like they were easy to kill. In fact it might be possible that the events on the path of hands severly deminished the population of D'ivers since they seem to be far more Feral then thier soletaken cousins.

What i would like to know is how that Dhenrabi D'ivers managed to swim his ass into the Azath?

[Illuyankas]

Through the warren it was using, probably Ruse.

[spiralx]

Given that D'ivers can increase the number of bodies they veer into through accumulating power, who is to say that Soletaken aren't just a weaker version of D'ivers?

[Illuyankas]

But Soletaken can keep that power in one body, whereas D'ivers divide that energy up into smaller, more easily killed bodies. I don't think D'ivers are that much more powerful than Soletaken, but obviously the best scenario is to be like Ryllandaras and be both.

[Kurt Montandon]

spiralx;178461 said:

Given that D'ivers can increase the number of bodies they veer into through accumulating power, who is to say that Soletaken aren't just a weaker version of D'ivers?

I'm not thinking that Anomander Rake is weaker than your average First Hero ...


Besides, a rather obvious, good example of a First Empire Soletaken, rather than D'ivers, is Trake/Treach.

[Mael]

Illuyankas;178464 said:

But Soletaken can keep that power in one body, whereas D'ivers divide that energy up into smaller, more easily killed bodies. I don't think D'ivers are that much more powerful than Soletaken, but obviously the best scenario is to be like Ryllandaras and be both.

I think it really depends on the person. Ryllandaras was powerful. He was a necromancer, most likely before he became a D'ivers. Bulk on the other hand is a soletaken with very little power other then the ability to fly like a sparrow.

Mancy's necromancer friends also recieve very little power from thier soletaken forms other then obvious advantages of being birds. Thier power comes from the human side as opposed to the animal side whereas Treach was the exact opposite. Many of the T'lan Imass bonecasters are exceptionally powerful in both forms, using thier animal forms for more mundane combat and thier "Imass" forms for more magical applications.

Rake on the other hand is most likely the most powerful Soletaken/D'ivers we have encountered so far with the possible exception of Silchas Ruin or Olar Ethil.

[Abyss]

I just glanced at the final dhenrabi scene in DG the other day - it describes them 'riding' a gate from a realm of water, but the water is turning to smoke as it hits the ground... unusual. KB&B had access to their warrens in Rook form. Apparently soletaken Tiste have access to SD and their native warren, so if it was Ruse, no reason not to use it.

Note, however, that the Hounds turned that d'ivers into sushi, but ran like chihuahuahuas from Paris Hilton on a meth trip when the bloodfly d'ivers that Fid's Tanno seashell took out showed up.

It seems clear that much as there are many paths to ascension, there are many paths and variations of shapeshifting. I don't think it's quite fair to say d'ivers are generally weaker than soletaken or vice versa - it's an individual thing. Ryllandas actually managed to change both his form and his numbers. For all Gryllen's apparent power, the bear soletaken (Messremb?) was ready to attack him. Moby, a demon soletaken with a bhokaral form of all things, was fighting all kinds of crazy shapeshifters to protect Crokus and co. And the Galayn Lord in GotM, tho somewhat gratuitous, was a draconic demon.

As for Rake, powerful tho he may be, just for perspective Anaster hurt him and even he wondered whether he could take ST and the Hounds (and no, that's not an invitation to start another 'ho'd win' debate - just a fact point.) Yet Olar Ethil was ready to guard the PoH gate against whatever got thru', which could have included the bloodfly d'ivers that sent the Hounds scurrying.

Point being, the levels of power are diverse amongst shapeshifters and the world in general.

- Abyss, in case anyone is still tempted, notes the answer is 'Wolverine ftw'.

[Mailik]

Well here is a curious addition to the discussion. Aside from those who recieved the power to shift from a god's influence ie Rake,Ruin,Oseric,Scabby,Buke, ect it seems it also comes with great power hence Bauchlain and Broach.
The D'ivers do not seem to have any older than the FE but the Soletaken have many who came from the first true FE in the form of the Bonecasters of the T'lan Imass.

Edit: Oh and as far as the fear the bloodfly D'ivers generated amonst certain enemies it should be remembered that bloodfly's inject their larva into the host body and they then eat their way out. Olar Ethil might not be too scared since she is but skin and bones.

[Battalion]

T said:

Aye, the hounds were no doubt capable of fighting anything that can be fought...but how do you fight a bunch of bloodflies?

Flyspray?