[Bl1nder]

sphish;169795 said:

Osserc doesn't really allow himself to be worshipped, though, if you think on it. He wants L'oric to find a "god" for the Liosan. He doesn't want to be that god.

Or meaby he has L'oric in mind to be that new god ?

[Mael]

phart;169786 said:

We could also call Rake that as well, if he allowed himself to get worshipped

Remember in MT it is mentioned that Silchas Ruin would have been one to humbly accept the burden of godhood...had he had the chance. He is Rakes younger brother.

The only reason Rake isn't a god is that he's so unbelievably leet that he's still around and acting directly in mortal affairs. The result of this is that, although he is more powerful then most gods, his followers view him as someone that you can literally follow as opposed to someone to be worshipped, much the same way as the bridgeburners follow whiskeyjack.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The only reason Rake isn't a god is because he doesn't want to be. He actively ignores his worshippers (the Bluerose), and he doesn't allow his own group of Andii to worship him as a deity.

[Coldsnap]

I must say, mael hits on something interesting there as well with Rake being directly involved in mortal affairs and acting like what I could only call an Immortal Sword of Mother Dark... but Dolorous is right too in that he actively ignores his worshippers as well...

[Aptorian]

Indeed, he denies his goodhood, much like Darist denied his ascendant blood.

You could speculate that if Rake took the mantle of King of High House Dark, God of Darkness, he might also start gathering a human following through Rashan. Imagine Bidithals reaction

[Abyss]

Have to wonder, tho, whether ignoring your worshippers is all that effective.

It's suggested that the Errant started out as MoD, but worship turned him into an aspect of Luck. D'rek wiped out his/her/its worshippers to avoid being 'forced' into an alliance with the CG, and Greyfrog's story certainly suggests worshippers and gods may be tighter than the gods might like.

- Abyss, was worshipped as a god after that last set of Century Club.

[Mael]

Abyss;170058 said:

Have to wonder, tho, whether ignoring your worshippers is all that effective.

I agree with this. The problem is that Rake does not have worshippers per say because of his direct involvement in mortal affairs. He has followers. Much like any General, warleader, Emperor, etc does.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;170061 said:

I agree with this. The problem is that Rake does not have worshippers per say because of his direct involvement in mortal affairs. He has followers. Much like any General, warleader, Emperor, etc does.

He does have worshippers. The Bluerose consider him a god, and they worship him as one - "the Black-Winged Lord" or something along those lines. Remember how shocked Ahlrada Ahn was when the Gral told him that Rake was hanging about in Genebackis losing battles with Malazans. That's not what you expect to hear about the abstract deity you worship.

He just doesn't acknowledge them. So clearly he is able to reject or deny his godhood without penalty - because his powers do not stem from the worship of others.

[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;170081 said:

... because his powers do not stem from the worship of others.

Obviously not denying that Rake is enormously powerful, but it's not like he does an 'on screen/book' self-check every day to determine where his power is coming from either.

If Rake died in the sense that, say, Dassem used Grief/Vengeance/Whine to cut off his head and limbs and then jump up and down on the remains and throw them all into a rusty woodchipper then serve the purée to geographically diverse incontinent lepers... Rake might very well ascend to a full blown godhood along the lines of what happened to Trake.


- Abyss, is quite sure one could find geographically diverse incontinent lepers if one looked.

[Aptorian]

Abyss;170088 said:

Obviously not denying that Rake is enormously powerful, but it's not like he does an 'on screen/book' self-check every day to determine where his power is coming from either.

If Rake died in the sense that, say, Dassem used Grief/Vengeance/Whine to cut off his head and limbs and then jump up and down on the remains and throw them all into a rusty woodchipper then serve the purée to geographically diverse incontinent lepers... Rake might very well ascend to a full blown godhood along the lines of what happened to Trake.


- Abyss, is quite sure one could find geographically diverse incontinent lepers if one looked.

Apt, refrains from making a "You can lead a geographically diverse incontinent leper to water but you cant make a geographically diverse incontinent leper drink"-joke...

[spiralx]

Mael;170061 said:

I agree with this. The problem is that Rake does not have worshippers per say because of his direct involvement in mortal affairs. He has followers. Much like any General, warleader, Emperor, etc does.

Per se, not per say

It's a reasonably common theme in fantasy that goodhod is as dependant upon the god's worshippers as the worshippers are the god. So while Rake actively denies any godhood we don't know whether his worship by the Bluerose has any effects or implications for him. Certainly it seems as though his denial is effective given Ahlrada Ahn's ignorance of what he's up to, so this binding seems to be something that comes with active acceptance of the mantle of godhood.

[Shadow_God]

The whole difference between god and ascendant and ascendents-who-are-gods and who is dependent upon worshippers and who isn't is one of the things that fascinates/bothers me about these books. Is it just that an ascendant dying (as Trake did) will make him dependent upon worshippers for power and life?
If so, does that mean that Kellanaved and Dancer did in fact die previous to their ascension? That was never particularly clear to me (although maybe it was cleared up in NoK, which I haven't read)?

[sphish]

Trake wasn't an ascendant, prior to his death to the Kell Hunters. He ascended, as a result of his death. What Toc was witnessing in MoI was the First Hero's death, which lead to his ascendancy.

[Kurt Montandon]

sphish;170702 said:

Trake wasn't an ascendant, prior to his death to the Kell Hunters. He ascended, as a result of his death. What Toc was witnessing in MoI was the First Hero's death, which lead to his ascendancy.

Trake was Ascended to begin with, but he wasn't a god. Thus Picker[1] "acquiring the blessings of an Ascendant" at the start of MoI.



[1] Whose name should really be Pitch, to go with Blend.

[Aptorian]

kmmontandon;170704 said:

Trake was Ascended to begin with, but he wasn't a god. Thus Picker[1] "acquiring the blessings of an Ascendant" at the start of MoI.

[1] Whose name should really be Pitch, to go with Blend.

Is Treach mentioned as an ascendant in MoI's list of ascendants?

I believe the common understanding is that he was a First Hero. Not exactly an ascendant, rather one of the most powerfull soletaken of the first empire. We don't know if his first hero status originally meant that he was ascendant, but what ever whát, he lost his mind during the ages.

He went Native if you will.

Apt, big fan of Apocalypse Now

[sphish]

As quoted from MoI, pg 435;

"The truth of this has burst like fire in my heart. On this, our last day, I have met this unnamed man, this servant of Treach, the Tiger of Summer... Treach ascending."

and prior to that, during Toc's vision, pg 233;

"Who has unchained your memories, Treach? Who has returned you to yourself? For centuries you were a beast, with a beast's mind. Once that place is reached, there is no return. Yet..."
Yet I am here
"When your life fades from this world, Treach, I suspect you will find yourself, not before Hood's gates, but... elsewhere. I can offer nothing of certainty. But I have sensed stirrings. An Elder God is active once again, perhaps the most ancient one of all. Subtle moves are being made. Select mortals have been chosen, and are being shaped. Why? What does this Elder God seek? I know not, but I believe it is in answer to a grave - and vast - threat. I believe the game that has begun will take a long time in its playing out."
A new war?
"Are you not the Tiger of Summer? A war in which, this Elder God has judged, you will be needed."
Wry amusement flooded Treach's mind. I have never been needed, Imass.
"Changes have come. Upon us all, it seems."
Ah, then we shall meet again? I would wish it. I would see you, once more, as the midnight panther.
She laughed, low in her throat. "And so the beast awakens. Farewell, Treach."
She had, in that last moment, seen what he only now felt. Darkness closed around him, narrowed his world. Vision... from two-eyes... to one.
One. Looking across a stretch of grasses as night fell, watching the massive Soletaken tiger pause warily above the dead bull ranag upon which it had been feeding. Seeing the twin flares of its cold, challenging glare. All... so long ago, now...
The nothing.
-----------------------------------------------

And so I conclude, that Treach ascended by dying. He ascended and took his place as a god in the pantheon, when Fener was torn from his realm by Heboric.