[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Yeah, I agree with Monok. Had Rake not had Moon's Spawn to deal with, or at least had the wizards of Pale deflected the assaults on Moon's Spawn, he would have had no trouble taking out Tayschrenn. I understand that there are fans of Tays here; people who believe he holds a huge amount of power....but I'm with Rake on this one.

[Veilside]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;168849 said:

Yeah, I agree with Monok. Had Rake not had Moon's Spawn to deal with, or at least had the wizards of Pale deflected the assaults on Moon's Spawn, he would have had no trouble taking out Tayschrenn. I understand that there are fans of Tays here; people who believe he holds a huge amount of power....but I'm with Rake on this one.

Rake is definitely a much stronger mage than Tay, he only withdrew from pale because he was trying to protect Moons Spawn. Tay is definitely very strong and i believe he's stronger than QB but i don't think he can rival Rake.

[Set'alahd Crool]

"The man she had known as Artanthos leaned over her. Sorcery had split the flesh of his face - the touch of chaos, she rcognised. A fiercer touch than what she could have survived. She knew then, in her soul, that the High Mage had willed no delay to his response. That he'd managed anything at all was . . . extraordinary."
and
"This - this is what was launched against Moon's Spawn. This is what my Lord struggled against. Alone, in the face of such power -"
indicate that Korlat is far from sure who'd win a Rake v Tays battle.

She obviously hasn't met Wolverine.

[Monoch Ochem]

Well argued Crool but I still think that only amounts to an exclamation of Tayschrenn's prowess and Rake's resillience.

Again, there was more to it...as Tattersail and her cadre were wondering: why not before? Where were the other High Mages in the Malazan army? Why risk it...why not have a full complement and take down Rake? I think because they knew they weren't equal to the task. They didn't want to push Rake too far but rather to make things too inconvenient for him.

But even that wasn't the whole deal. Tayschrenn wanted to uncover a villain. He'd been onto the plot and used Bellurdan and A'karonys to do the research for him. It was too dangerous for him though... there were wheels within wheels and he maybe wasn't sure about Hairlock or anyone else being co-conspirators. He did suspect Nightchill, it would seem. The Kenryllah demon was no-doubt his summoning once he had conclusive proof of the treachery and its source. Recall, Hairlock or someone wondered why these specific mages.... it was probably more the unseen threat that the Empress wanted to eliminate rather than the obvious one (Rake).

[spiralx]

Maybe because Rake's legendary reputation exceeds his capabilities as Korlat (who should know at least better than rumour) understands them? It's possible that Tays and Rake are very close in terms of power, but that the Malazians had assumed that Tays would inevitably lose to him...

It could again be possibly something to do with attitude and will - the TA as a whole aren't exactly the most motivated race, even when it comes to their own survival are they?

[Veilside]

Set said:

"The man she had known as Artanthos leaned over her. Sorcery had split the flesh of his face - the touch of chaos, she rcognised. A fiercer touch than what she could have survived. She knew then, in her soul, that the High Mage had willed no delay to his response. That he'd managed anything at all was . . . extraordinary."
and
"This - this is what was launched against Moon's Spawn. This is what my Lord struggled against. Alone, in the face of such power -"
indicate that Korlat is far from sure who'd win a Rake v Tays battle.

She obviously hasn't met Wolverine.

Korlat says that just after she's taken a pretty solid blow to the head and seen her lover die, i'd think that anything she said at that point wasn't to be taken as complete truth tbh, just because you could quite safely assume that she was in shock etc.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Veilside;169142 said:

Korlat says that just after she's taken a pretty solid blow to the head and seen her lover die, i'd think that anything she said at that point wasn't to be taken as complete truth tbh, just because you could quite safely assume that she was in shock etc.

That's true of the first bit, but by the time Tays is assaulting the walls of Coral Korlat's been healed by Brood. I recall Mallet explaining that denul heals the emotional scar that accompanies a wound, as well as the wound itself.

As for shock at witnessing her lover's death, I fail to see how that could make her overstate the power of one who failed to save said lover. "That bloke who couldn't save my beloved is so great!" wouldn't be my reaction, anyway.

[Bl1nder]

Tay is a human High Mage, Rake is a thousand year old Ascendant, one of the most powerfull at that, there is no argument here, just because the dog has teeth, it doesnt mean they are as big as the wolf's. I think, should it come to rake vs tay, rake would win without a doubt, but not without getting damaged himself. As for rake vs Ruin, yes I agree that having more Draconian blood can only be good, because it does add some power atleast. However I think people simply like Ruin because hes a a new char, and Rake has been here since book one and hes getting kinda too "familiar", thats just my opinion tho . But still I'd say that it will be a close thing, but then again I doubt it will come to it, alteast Rake is quite confident it wont "check RG prologue"

[Shadow_God]

Rake's age doesn't necessarily mean he is more powerful - we see throughout the series that ancient powers who run up against relative newcomers can be trounced. My impression is that neither Rake nor Tayschrenn were actually wielding the full extent of their powers against each other during the siege of Pale - both had other priorities than annihilating the other outright.
I'm frankly hoping that this question is cleared up in a more...direct...fashion in later books.

[Aptorian]

Honestly Rake has battled one EG a handfull of times (Osserc) and killed another one (Draconus)

Do you need any more proof that he'd wipe the floor with Tay on any given battlefield?

[sphish]

I don't believe Osserc is an EG, however. He's the first of the Tiste Liosan... yes, but not an elemental force/EG. He is however the representation of Serc... I believe, which has been quoted by Icarium/Mappo's conversation when they find the dead dragon in the skykeep, in TBH.

[sphish]

And bare in mind... he never beat Osserc, and Draconus is only imprisoned due to having shed blood to Dragnipur. Dragnipur doesn't need to kill you to imprison you, it seems. It just needs your blood... can someone fill in more, if they've seen anything?

The reason I say it doesn't need to kill you is due to the non-fatal blows the two Hounds received, in GotM. Paran, if you recall, wonders at the non-fatal blows having felled the two hounds.

[Dragnipurake]

One of the hounds was decapitated (except for some skin), and the other was seriously injured, but the injury was not fatal by itself.

people have argued about the results with dragnipur for so long, it now appears it is a much safer weapon than a normal steel weapon, eh?!

[Dolorous Menhir]

sphish;169542 said:

I don't believe Osserc is an EG, however. He's the first of the Tiste Liosan... yes, but not an elemental force/EG. He is however the representation of Serc... I believe, which has been quoted by Icarium/Mappo's conversation when they find the dead dragon in the skykeep, in TBH.

Osserc was listed among the Elder Gods in GotM, if you remember his name was attached to many landmarks in Darujhistan. This was long before we learned of the Tiste Liosan though, and it may well be a GotMism.

[phart]

Aptorian;169471 said:

Honestly Rake has battled one EG a handfull of times (Osserc) and killed another one (Draconus)

Do you need any more proof that he'd wipe the floor with Tay on any given battlefield?

Add what he done to the three dragons in shadow his helping of cleansing KE, Rake is just an enigma that no one can figure out, as Paran eludes to when speaking with NC when on the roof with Gruntle etc.

[Aptorian]

Reexamining my statement about Osserc, I admit that one might be a bit shaky, he is, like Dolouros mentioned, stated as a EG at one point. Then again he's listed in the Draconean Tree as not having a mother, and he's not placed in the unfound time, so he can't be one of the elder gods Mother Dark created. This is by the way one of the few reasons to why I have him pecked as actually being Father Light.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Dolorous Menhir;169555 said:

Osserc was listed among the Elder Gods in GotM, if you remember his name was attached to many landmarks in Darujhistan. This was long before we learned of the Tiste Liosan though, and it may well be a GotMism.

In the MT prologue Gothos includes Osric in a mental list of Elder Gods when he wonders who's standing behind him -Mael, it turned out.
Could MT contain GotMisms?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well there you go, I'd totally forgotten about that. So can we consider Osserc an Elder God for sure?

[phart]

Dolorous Menhir;169778 said:

Well there you go, I'd totally forgotten about that. So can we consider Osserc an Elder God for sure?

We could also call Rake that as well, if he allowed himself to get worshipped

[sphish]

Osserc doesn't really allow himself to be worshipped, though, if you think on it. He wants L'oric to find a "god" for the Liosan. He doesn't want to be that god.