[Coldsnap]

Im wondering now about the brothers dark... leaving out Andarist, since he seems like the lame one that no one really liked, never had all that much potential or power, and gets stuck with the rough job in the end and Rake's hand-me-down swords.

Anomander is kick ass powerful, well-traveled and and one of the biggest powerhouses in the whole world, mentioned in every novel so far, soletaken draconean from Tiam, gettin busy with Silanah on the side, fighting gods, ascendants, emprisoning draconus, slaying demon kings, and still having a charisma comparable only to Mael's in terms of dealing with mortals... cleaning warrens, and Mother Dark'favored son, too.. whatever that means...

But Ruin is just... Awesome, in my humble opinion, and its clear hes a tough one too, and he drank far more deeply from Tiam after Rake did. But they both have tried to care for tiste andii populations, and both have been some pretty crazy enemies: Ruin takes out a lot of KCCM and skykeeps, i bet, plus those Tarthenal gods and that matron grabbin his ankle.

So in this final paragraph, ill ask: who is more powerful of the two? Maybe more like, what is the difference between the being Mother Darks' favored son and having drank more of Tiam's blood? And really, just what do ya guys think of these guys altogether?

And this is just one last pointless paragraph.

[Dark Mac]

Silchas Ruin takes this easily. He's the only character we know of (besides the Eres, I guess) to absolutely slaughter the Forkrul Assail.

[Koryk of the Seti]

if annomander didnt have draginpur he wudnt be all that cool but ruin now he is kick ass with any old sword and the fact that he did drink deeper means i think that in his soletaken form he wud rip just abut anyone apart

[sphish]

I don't think the measure of this can be fully taken in martial prowess. Anomander wields considerable magical ability, aside from his wielding of Dragnipur. From what I've read, I haven't seen any shows of sorcerous ability from Ruin, and... well... from the look of things, Andarist is out of the running.

[Aptorian]

Coldsnap;164515 said:

Im wondering now about the brothers dark... leaving out Andarist, since he seems like the lame one that no one really liked, never had all that much potential or power, and gets stuck with the rough job in the end and Rake's hand-me-down swords.

Anomander is kick ass powerful, well-traveled and and one of the biggest powerhouses in the whole world, mentioned in every novel so far, soletaken draconean from Tiam, gettin busy with Silanah on the side, fighting gods, ascendants, emprisoning draconus, slaying demon kings, and still having a charisma comparable only to Mael's in terms of dealing with mortals... cleaning warrens, and Mother Dark'favored son, too.. whatever that means...

But Ruin is just... Awesome, in my humble opinion, and its clear hes a tough one too, and he drank far more deeply from Tiam after Rake did. But they both have tried to care for tiste andii populations, and both have been some pretty crazy enemies: Ruin takes out a lot of KCCM and skykeeps, i , plus those Tarthenal gods and that matron grabbin his ankle.

So in this final paragraph, ill ask: who is more powerful of the two? Maybe more like, what is the difference between the being Mother Darks' favored son and having drank more of Tiam's blood? And really, just what do ya guys think of these guys altogether?

And this is just one last pointless paragraph.

Darist wasn't more of a pussy than Rake or Ruin, he just gave up the power of his own blood. Darist must have been born an ascendant like his other brothers but of course he lacked the draconean aspect. But without his ascendant nature he aged considerably over the hundreds of millenia while Ruin and Rake stayed healthy and powerfull. We see him hold his own against waves of Edur mages and warriors, that wasn't all the swords doing.

I don't really think there's any point in comparing Rake and Ruin. Just think of them as completely over the top creations. Besides Rake being described as the only known Archmage there doesn't seem like much of a difference between them powerwise. They're both leaders, draconean soletaken and superior swordfighters.

[Illuyankas]

Besides, Ruin points out that all the draconean types - Elient and Soletaken - were powerful enough to kill the FA. And we know from the MT prologue that Ruin has KG and SD to call upon, so we don't know which of them is stronger - some of those calling Rake Archmage probably never even knew Ruin existed.

[flea]

Slightly off topic:

If one is immortal, it helps to have a reason to live.

Iirc, Rake says something about keeping his people fighting in causes not their own to provide a reason to live. (Imho, I wonder if Rake's own world-weariness is a foreshadowing, much as Whiskeyjack's seemed to be).

Andarist seems particularly world-weary when we see him. (Andarist and Rake remind me of the High Elves in Tolkien, with Rake as a kind of Elrond. Back to the topic...)

Ruin seems especially motivated. I wouldn't want to face an angry Ruin.

In what ways might Ruin live up to his name?

Of course Ruin been at rest for a long time. Rake has been learning all these millennia and, possibly, growing more powerful as he lives and learns.

While we are on the topic of power, what about the paradoxes of power? We know that power attracts power, but I don't think it has been much commented on about the price of using power. We see the price the Edur pay when they channel enormous power, and we see how Rake and Brood deliberately hold back (for very good reasons, especially for Brood).

[Aptorian]

flea;164661 said:

While we are on the topic of power, what about the paradoxes of power? We know that power attracts power, but I don't think it has been much commented on about the price of using power. We see the price the Edur pay when they channel enormous power, and we see how Rake and Brood deliberately hold back (for very good reasons, especially for Brood).

The edur k'risnan become malformed because of the CGs power, not from using power.

We've seen human mages drawing on their warrens and draining themselves of their own lifeforce. Their bones become brittle, their flesh cracks, they waste away.

This is the difference between ascendants and mortals. Ascendant magic users don't have the same problems, the best example probably being Envy. She fought one long war through the Panion Domin with out breaking a sweat.

All the gods and ascendants tend to keep direct influence at a minimum, not because of the cost of their power, but because of the effect it has. In the time of the Elder Gods the ascendants and gods did indeed walk the earth and they destroyed and suppressed the forces that would oppose them. But power draws power or rather in the case of the EGs, bloodshead and chaos drew more destruction. Kallor killed 12 million people as a result of the last three's involvement. Bonecasters warring with Jaghut we're said to set the heavens afire and lay waste to the earth.

Gods can probably tire aswell, or at least there are limits to how much they can handle, the only example I can think of being K'rul soaking up all the blood spill/death on his path into Kallors empire and needing it to fashion the cleansing of the continent.

[Father Light]

personally i believe blade in hand ruin is the greatest warrior in this series bar none. forget skinner, the seguleh first dassem or toblakai.

however, put magic into it and rake and icarium are my bets.

[flea]

Aptorian;164675 said:

The edur k'risnan become malformed because of the CGs power, not from using power.

We've seen human mages drawing on their warrens and draining themselves of their own lifeforce. Their bones become brittle, their flesh cracks, they waste away.

Great points--I stand corrected.

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This is the difference between ascendants and mortals. Ascendant magic users don't have the same problems, the best example probably being Envy. She fought one long war through the Panion Domin with out breaking a sweat.

Doesn't she talk about how difficult it was to control the Segulah? Spite shows a bit of wear and tear in BH as well. Regardless, good points about important differences between mortals and Ascendants/gods.

[Aptorian]

Father Light;164677 said:

personally i believe blade in hand ruin is the greatest warrior in this series bar none. forget skinner, the seguleh first dassem or toblakai.

however, put magic into it and rake and icarium are my bets.

You are calling Ruin the greatest warrior, based on him dicing up a few Tarhenal Gods, who couldn't even stand up against Iron Bars?

Of course he did also kill a Matron, but still thats a lot of hype to put on that guys shoulders.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Yeah, we haven't really seen Ruin do much. I have taken a liking to his character, but Icarium thought that Traveller could have killed him....and he wields Vengeance with the singular will necessary to be unbeatable. However, holding aside the question of whether he is Dassem, it's clear from Feather Witch's prophecy that he has a meeting with Rake in the making.

[Coldsnap]

Hey, i was wonderin about that... was Icarium speaking of Traveller when he voiced that he could be killed... or was he talkin about Shadowthrone? I liked the idea that even Icarium is kinda scared of Shadowthrone, the ultimate shaved knuckle in his very own hole... but then again, i probably just read that whole part wrong.

[Set'alahd Crool]

It's Traveller that Icarium says might have been able to destroy him.

[Abyss]

As an aside to the original post, it was Sheltana who was grabbing Ruin, not a "Matron".

If Rake did in fact create Vengeance/Grief, it may not be all that effective against him. If he just used it but someone else made it, anyone's guess.

The Galayn Lord, who was enslaved by Tayshrenn, made Rake work for it. And even he thought ST, Cot and the Hounds could take him. Alaster even caused him pain. Point, being, Rake is NOT the end all of power ever. He has limits, other powers can take him, and we know even less about Ruin. WHich doesn't stop of from speculating madly, thus I'm obliged by law to point out that Wolverine would kick both their @$$es.

(as a complete aside, it's unfortunate that LKM hasn't been on the forum in ages, because she's the only one who would have got the 'Brothers Drunk' joke i would have made here...)

- Abyss, ever respectful of a ho'd win thread.

[Aptorian]

Abyss;164913 said:

If Rake did in fact create Vengeance/Grief, it may not be all that effective against him. If he just used it but someone else made it, anyone's guess.

I actually liked the notion of Griefs power. The sword is only as good as the wielder of the blade while Dragnipur is the equivelant of riding a bike with training wheels.

If traveler is Dassem, he'll be able to do some crazy shit with that thing. Rake on the other hand apparently just needs to poke you with Dragnipur and you're a slave to the music... of wagon wheels anyway.

[Mael]

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Hey, i was wonderin about that... was Icarium speaking of Traveller when he voiced that he could be killed... or was he talkin about Shadowthrone? I liked the idea that even Icarium is kinda scared of Shadowthrone, the ultimate shaved knuckle in his very own hole... but then again, i probably just read that whole part wrong.

It's tough to say. When i read it and reread it i believed he was referring to shadowthrone and used past tense in order to convince the Edur that the throne had indeed been destroyed. It seems to me like most people believe he was referring to traveller because Icarium wouldn't think shadowthrone powerful enough to destroy him. This is false.

Shadowthrone is for more powerful then people give him credit for. Remember when he appeared on the Rivai Plain after Rake killed the two hounds. Rake himself admitted that Shadowthrone had the power to possibly destroy him but would incure the wrath of all the Tiste Andii in the event of Rakes death. Shadowthrone then withdrew his and cotillion's influence to avoid said confrontation as it was not in his intrests. Keep in mind that Shadowthrone didn't think twice about challenging Rake personally when the need arose though. That in itself is something the vast majority of the younger gods would choose to avoid at all costs.

He may appear to be batshit crazy...but he's a genius and rarely needs to exercise his power in the same brutal manner as other gods and assendants. Besides...he has the Rope to do that for him when the need arises.

[Abyss]

Mael;164937 said:

......he has the Rope to do that for him when the need arises.

But an interesting point arises... The Rope generally uses agents - Cutter, Kalam, Apsalar that we know of. The only time he's intervened directly was when one of them was in serious risk and called on him.

Rake, at least in Darujhistan, relied on his Andii to do most of the work, again, only interfering directly when a major opponent arose who would likely cost him followers. At Capustan and Coral he acted where to not act would have cost his allies severely.

We've theorized on the forum that gods stay out of direct action because the rule of convergence means acting directly will draw other gods/ascendants to act directly. It would seem a reluctance to lose useful/loyal people alsom influences at least Rake and Rope.

Point being, for any denials of godhood, Rake acts an awful lot like a god.

Traveller/Dassem, otoh, does not have agents running around doing his bidding, at least, that we know about. Apparently he has followers, tho' i think we've only seen Rath'Dessembrae.

Ruin doesn't seem (thus far) to have any of the trapping of a god, unless we count the Edur semi-worshipping him as Scabby's betrayer and nemisis.

- Abyss, thinks Rake and Rope should do a home/garden TV show.

[spiralx]

Cotillon was only mortal a short while (in Wu terms at least), and seems to behave less like a god than most - none of his agents are his worshippers properly, not even Cutter who comes closest. I think it's less like Rake acting like a god, and more like the Rope acting less like a god

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;164937 said:

It's tough to say. When i read it and reread it i believed he was referring to shadowthrone and used past tense in order to convince the Edur that the throne had indeed been destroyed. It seems to me like most people believe he was referring to traveller because Icarium wouldn't think shadowthrone powerful enough to destroy him. This is false.

Shadowthrone is for more powerful then people give him credit for. Remember when he appeared on the Rivai Plain after Rake killed the two hounds. Rake himself admitted that Shadowthrone had the power to possibly destroy him but would incure the wrath of all the Tiste Andii in the event of Rakes death. Shadowthrone then withdrew his and cotillion's influence to avoid said confrontation as it was not in his intrests. Keep in mind that Shadowthrone didn't think twice about challenging Rake personally when the need arose though. That in itself is something the vast majority of the younger gods would choose to avoid at all costs.

That's not how it happened. Rake was more than willing to challenge a solo Shadowthrone. And he noted that if Cotillion was nearby, then the pair of them would pose a real threat to Rake. Which clearly implied that Shadowthrone alone was managable. I don't mean to belittle ST's power, but you give him too much credit I think.

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He may appear to be batshit crazy...but he's a genius and rarely needs to exercise his power in the same brutal manner as other gods and assendants. Besides...he has the Rope to do that for him when the need arises.

I don't think ST's raw strength is particularly important, and it is not something that's been clearly demonstrated. His true influence lies in his intellect and his ability to plan ahead and thus outmanoeuvre his enemies.

And to return to the original point of the post, it seemed clear that Icarium was referring to Traveller when he spoke of the one who could defeat him. Traveller pledged (in HoC) to stay on Drift Avalii and guard it in honour of Andarist's memory. It never occurred to me that Icarium may have meant ST, but I'll have to look the passage up to make sure.

Makes more sense that it was Traveller though.