[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

sphish;164559 said:

I think some of you guys are overestimating the T'lan Imass, much of the time too. In MoI, the first sighting Gruntle has of the Kron T'lan Imass puts 60 T'lan Imass out of action permanently against no more than 5 K'Chain Che'malle.

Factor in that, the same book has the T'lan Ay losing none in that fight, in the same section, and the Seguleh Third and his two brothers take out one in the span of seconds.

The T'lan Imass aren't invicibile, and aren't as powerful as people seem to believe, but when you have tens of thousands of undead warriors who have no qualms of dying, and no regard for their own safety... it kind of puts a distinct advantage to the fight, in their favour.

The fact that they have no regard for their own safety may be precisely why they lost. Think about it; the Imass are tired of being bound to their ritual. They seek oblivion. Being severed from the ritual is the only way for them to do this. We've seen exemplary swordsmen from the T'lan Imass, with the implication that through the years they have grown brutally effective and have honed their skills.

Regardless of the fact that Tool was in the process of being defeated by Mok, I don't think that getting beat down by the Seguleh Third is all that bad. Give any T'lan Imass a reason to live (Onrack's friendship with Trull, the Imass at the end of BH....) and they perk up.

Now, with all this said, it is possible that the KCCM would still have ripped through them even if they had the will to live. We just don't know the context.

[Abyss]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;164700 said:

The fact that they have no regard for their own safety may be precisely why they lost. Think about it; the Imass are tired of being bound to their ritual. They seek oblivion...

Interesting point, this. I like the notion that the very fact of being undead has led to the Imass being less than they once were. As if having denied death, they've lost the whatever that made them once, while alive, powerful enough to take out Jaghut tyrants (albeit occasionally with assistance from other Jaghut, Iccy, whomever...).

Also interesting that while Tool wanted to return to life, others may not share this. Most specifically Onrack, now bonded to Trull, may not be too keen to die. Similarly the Unbound

Which also raise the question of whether Tool, now alive, may become even better.. a rematch with Mok would be interesting.

(what would NOT be interesting, however, is this breaking into a 'ho'd win' thread. The answer is 'Wolverine'. Move on... )

Back on topic tho', i find the notion that the CG were created specifically to counter the TI also interesting. Guess it didn't work so well, since Davore is still out of office, but this may explain why Sandalath reacted so to touching IB - maybe he's dead inside, and not in a cuddly need therapy sort of way.

- Abyss, been back from the dead at least twice.

[spiralx]

That does make sense - the Ritual was done to ensure that the Imass could hunt down the last of the Jaghut, no matter how well they hid - which would imply that they'd already taken out most of the most obvious (and one would assume that would include the powerful Tyrants) targets already. They'd "won" as Imass, becoming T'lan was just because it had become some sort of religious crusade at that point.

What they gained in terms of longevity and raw power, they've lost in vitality and drive i.e. their ability to actually focus their might effectively. I'm sure that Tool will now indeed become more formidable...

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Ritual was needed because the Imass were losing the war. The Jaghut brought about an ice age and this was wiping out the living Imass. Becoming undead removed the need for food and warmth, and thus made Jaghut sorceries far less effective against the Imass.

The Imass were losing before the Ritual was performed.

Undeath may have made the Imass more resistant to damage, and tireless, but I don't think it directed improved their fighting ability - it may even have harmed it somewhat. The increase in durability and essentially infinite stamina are the upsides that must have made it worthwhile.

[Obdigore]

Angel;164202 said:

He killed the Jheck and they didn't seem like much judging by the way that Trull smacked them around... As for the other seven creatues... well he did have help.

... What are you talking about? He didn't fight the Jheck, he fought their GOD, a being powerful enough to be one of the FIRST out the imprisonment of the Azath.

Also, as to Trull, yea the best warrior of a race is, you know, just ok by everyone else's standards.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Obdigore;164914 said:

Also, as to Trull, yea the best warrior of a race is, you know, just ok by everyone else's standards.

He he. Trull's crap all right. He couldn't even finish off Icarium.
The big jessie!

[Abyss]

Honestly, that Trull, what a complete wuss.

Dol'Men has it right, in that the Jaghut had basically withdrawn from the fight and were in the process of just wiping out the Imass by way of cold and starvation.

@Obdi: actually, IB also took out their leader, the Jheck alpha whose name escapes me now. And iirc, this was after the fight with the Pack, but before the fight with the Seraghal.

- Abyss, figures dead Jheck make nice hats.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;164921 said:

@Obdi: actually, IB also took out their leader, the Jheck alpha whose name escapes me now. And iirc, this was after the fight with the Pack, but before the fight with the Seraghal.

- Abyss, figures dead Jheck make nice hats.

The Jheck leader was B'nagga. There was all the foreshadowing of the Jheck coming to power and B'nagga taking over the continent, and then Iron Bars just casually killed him. I always liked how the ease of it shocked the Errant.

[Abyss]

Yep - just a subtle little 'in case you were wondering, Iron Bars is *snaps Jheck neck* THAT badass'.

Tho the point is made by Corlo that IB was exceptional, even for an CrimGd... something to the effect of not skill like Blues or Skinner, but sheer will.


- Abyss, displays not skill, but sheer will, in procrastinating real work.

[Mael]

Quote

Well, the Avowed are, well, avowed to get back Kazz D'Avore's throne back in.. Unta, was it? Well anyway, Kallanved conquered Quon Tali with the T'lan Imass, no? So it makes sense for the Crimson Guard to be outmatched...

No. Kellanved conquered Seven Cities with the T'lan Imass. He conquered Quon Tali using his brains.

[Mael]

Quote

The Ritual was needed because the Imass were losing the war. The Jaghut brought about an ice age and this was wiping out the living Imass. Becoming undead removed the need for food and warmth, and thus made Jaghut sorceries far less effective against the Imass.

The Imass were losing before the Ritual was performed.

Undeath may have made the Imass more resistant to damage, and tireless, but I don't think it directed improved their fighting ability - it may even have harmed it somewhat. The increase in durability and essentially infinite stamina are the upsides that must have made it worthwhile.

This is very true. The ritual was a method to escape the requirements of the mortal flesh. Also, in binding thier spirits to the Ritual of Tellan they effectively abandoned the beast hold that had givin them the power to perform the ritual in the first place and replaced it with the newly created warren of tellan. Sure thier new found advantages served the majority of them quite well, but I believe that a flesh and blood Imass bonecaster would have far more power then an Undead T'lan Imass bonecaster. After all...there are 2 flesh and blood bonecasters. Take Kilava Onas, who is one of the most powerful characters we have seen so far, as a prime example.

[Aptorian]

Mael;165037 said:

Take Kilava Onas, who is one of the most powerful characters we have seen so far, as a prime example.

Strange I hadn't actually thought of this but... Does being soletaken make you Immortal?

Pran Chole didnt seem to think of himself as such when he realised what the ritual would do to him in his conversation with Kilava in MoI and Kruppe in GotM.

If it doesn't make you immortal, how the hell did Kilava stay alive for 300.000 years?! :confused:

[spiralx]

By Ascending? I'm sure there's plenty of ways and means, there usually is in Wu if you look hard enough

[Aptorian]

spiralx;165266 said:

By Ascending? I'm sure there's plenty of ways and means, there usually is in Wu if you look hard enough

Well Kilava isn't mentioned in the ranks of the ascendants...

I wonder if this is some obvious SE mistake.

[Aptorian]

Hetan;165509 said:

I always thought Kilava was made immortal from her likeness being painted by Onrack on the cave walls.. after all it was forbidden by the Imass to replicate anyone that way... and not forgetting that Onrack did have some Bonecaster skills himself.

I think you are on to something there... but immortality? Would she then loose her immortality if the rendering is destroyed like that classical story of the man who gained immortality through a painting?

Must read MoI and HoC tomorrow...

Back on topic, I kinda imagine the CGs as what flesh and blood, ascended Bridge Burners could accomplish.

[Tattooed Hand]

If getting painted on the wall makes you immortal, why didn't the bonecasters just pick up some brushes instead of the ritual? They'd age a whole lot better.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Tattooed Hand;165592 said:

If getting painted on the wall makes you immortal, why didn't the bonecasters just pick up some brushes instead of the ritual? They'd age a whole lot better.

Though I assume you meant that jokingly, I believe it is indicated that in the case of Onrack and Kilava, she was "immortalized" (and I use that term lightly, despite the fact that she apparently was) not only through his skill but through his feelings for her, forbidden though they were.

[spiralx]

Hetan;165509 said:

I always thought Kilava was made immortal from her likeness being painted by Onrack on the cave walls.. after all it was forbidden by the Imass to replicate anyone that way... and not forgetting that Onrack did have some Bonecaster skills himself.

And back on topic... I am soooo looking forward to reading The Return of the Crimson Guard at some point. I would love to know what form the ritual took and how many of them there are. What made them become such great fighters etc.

That was the implication... but as TH said, it does seem a bit easy. I suspect that WiDU has it right and that it was a combination of the drawing, the taboo nature of both it and Onrack's feelings, and sympathetic spirit magic which would've been more prevalent back in ye olde days

[Abyss]

I'm fairly sure Kilava is not actually 'immortal', in the sense that gods are, but she is a soletaken bonecaster, and a few hundred thou or so years of experiences that started with killing off her entire clan go a long way towards ascension.

However, i think that the picture was only just that - a cultural taboo that Onrack violated that triggered her subsequent homicidal tendencies. She was already powerful.

There are ample real world examples of tribes reluctant to have their picture taken for fear of losing their souls or something, and that's all i think that was.

-Abyss, wonders if the cave wall add ten pounds...