[Ellestra]

I was tring to articulate why I like Laseen on my journal and this was born - sorry for lenght

I think the Empress is so hard to like because we never get her point of view or even saw her from close perspective.
I liked Pearl. I hoped Lostara would find him on time to stop his rampage and it was so sad in the end.
I still admire Leoman. What he did was a great plan. He couldn’t win so he made the victory pyrrhic for Malazans. It was horrible and gives me chills every time I think about it but it was well planed. And everybody got what they wanted – Malazans – Y’Ghatan, rebels – glory. And I’m with him on not wanting to die for it, too.
I feel sorry for Rhuald and even for Chained God. The pain they go through is more then anyone should suffer. I wouldn’t hesitate to stop them but there wouldn’t be any satisfaction in it. Sometimes I just wish they would get healed and forget and then it would be all right again no matter how foolish and unrealistic that is.
Even after what he did to Quick Ben I want Ammanas to succeed. What they plan is a worthy cause. The things they do I do not always approve but they still have some decency left and they don’t do it just for fun. It’s just extra bonus sometimes.
In all this cases we were able to at least glimpse of explanation of their deeds, been able to understand some of their motivations. Some of them get point of views, some we observe through someone close, sometimes even sympathetic.
Not Laseen. We don’t know why she does all this. Why sometime she seems to be uncanny clever while other times one wonders how she mange to survive being an Empress.
She knew about Pannion Domin and prepared for fight with it beforehand, same with Seven Cities revolt. She knew where to expect Tavore’s fleet even though they traveled by warren. She send Tayschreen, her best and most loyal mage, to Genabackis because she knew about incoming emergence of Master of the Deck and power struggle.
At the same time she designated Pormquall to defend Aren. And just let Korbolo and Mallick usurp power – it’s not that’s she afraid of Jhistal’s power – she attacked Emperor and he was really powerful mage. She frees Jaghut tyrant. She allows massacres.
We, don’t know what motivates her. I don’t know what Erikson has planned (or maybe it’s Esselmont who’s going to write what happens to her next), but I have strange feeling of discomfort when I think about her.
It just doesn’t fit. Like she’s competent and incompetent at the same time.

(NoK spoilers)

Spoiler

She knew Kellanved and Dancer escaped when she tried to kill them, but she doesn’t pursue. She just pretends they died and makes Tayschrenn comply. They are attacked by claws on they way to the Deadhouse but it’s no one serious. It’s funny how she tries to kill them on the night they plan to leave the Empire for good, for something bigger. She did something similar with Dassem. Left some lesser claws to finish him of on the day that he wanted to leave Malazans for good.
It’s uncanny how much resemblance there is to the Dassem’s and Emperor’s assassination attempts. I don’t we were told about the first one by coincidence. She wanted them dead, but didn’t try it hard and then when they left like they wanted she pretended they died and made everybody agree with that – the otataral mines were the alternative.

And when I think about it there is also some resemblance to what Shadowthrone did to Quick Ben and Laseen did to Tavore. ST sends Quick as a bait and if it wasn’t for Apsalar he probably wouldn’t have survived. If QB didn’t survive there would have been a problem with using him later to protect the throne. ST wanted QB. So why did he try to kill him?
Tavore is the best leader Laseen and Malazan Empire has, she’s loyal, she is the Adjunct, why dispose of her? It’s like some kind of test to check if they are worthy. Ascension means greater power and one ascends through suffering. Tavore’s will and determination is being tested and honed – like a sword – no matter how many people die to achieve it. I think that was planned for Coltaine first, but he didn’t make it, so Tavore is a replacement. It’s the same as with her brother – Tattersail was to be Master of the Deck but was killed and Paran took her place.
Kellanved and Surly keep on using same tricks – even the talking with people when not really there. After all they spent century together something must have rubbed off on her.

Desertion of 14th looks similar to what changed 2nd into Dujek’s Host only better staged. I think Laseen needed to make it look convincing, beyond doubt, that’s why she let Korbolo and Mallick to live and plot. Now they’ll go to fight evil ruler of other Empire without looking like invasion force. Even people hating Rhuald would fight against invasion form rivaling Empire, but if a large, unaligned force was to help the rebels, that’s different. Everybody just has to be convinced the desertion was real. Tavore had to survive Malaz on her own and she wouldn’t have manged this without Kalam and T’amber. Laseen sent Pearl to make it more real, thinking Kalam could have taken him. She miscalculated – as with the BridgeBurners at Pale. Luckily Apsalar was there, again.

Do Ammanas and Laseen work together or just have same/similar goals?
Why Laseen hates magic so much – her obsession with using otataral, disposing of magically talented – she is a magic user herself after all?

This is all just speculation, hypothesis. I don’t know maybe she really is power hungry and stupid. I guess I’ll have to RAFO and hope it’ll become clearer.

[Bl1nder]

Spoiler

She did NOT defeat Kellanved, she used otratal dust to neutralise his magic

If you havent read NoK dont read the above.

I had the same idea to be honest, but then i read NoK, and by her reactions coupled with some other things, I think its plain that she isnt working with them by all means. What I think is that Ammanas and Cotillion did want revenge, however they have more important things to attend to and they have left the revenge, if there is one at all, for later. And you said that they have some decense left (sorry for the spelling), how can you be so sure? I mean we know what they are trying to achieve, the Azath, but to what purpose? Even if you disregard that we basically know nothing about those two. How did they start working toggeter, why do they work toggerter, is it a limited partnership or something more?
To go back to the point however, I dont think they have some sort of alliance with Laseen

[Ellestra]

Bl1nder;159675 said:

Spoiler

She did NOT defeat Kellanved, she used otratal dust to neutralise his magic

If you havent read NoK dont read the above.

I had the same idea to be honest, but then i read NoK, and by her reactions coupled with some other things, I think its plain that she isnt working with them by all means. What I think is that Ammanas and Cotillion did want revenge, however they have more important things to attend to and they have left the revenge, if there is one at all, for later. And you said that they have some decense left (sorry for the spelling), how can you be so sure? I mean we know what they are trying to achieve, the Azath, but to what purpose? Even if you disregard that we basically know nothing about those two. How did they start working toggeter, why do they work toggerter, is it a limited partnership or something more?
To go back to the point however, I dont think they have some sort of alliance with Laseen

But I’ve read NoK – I didn’t say

Spoiler

she defeated him – just that she tried to kill him and then pretended he was dead. It was really weird. I thought she would make sure, especially after what happened with Dassem, but she did nothing.

Decency – I meant how Cotillion cared for the children and Ammanas for the Wickans for example. Not the grand plan. Although I think helping Azath is good, until new information proves me wrong.

[Rat Mentor]

Just a point,

Tayschreen is only loyal to the Malazan Empire, not Laseen. There is definately no love lost between the two of them....

[Bl1nder]

Ellestra;159682 said:

But I’ve read NoK – I didn’t say

Spoiler

she defeated him – just that she tried to kill him and then pretended he was dead. It was really weird. I thought she would make sure, especially after what happened with Dassem, but she did nothing.

Decency – I meant how Cotillion cared for the children and Ammanas for the Wickans for example. Not the grand plan. Although I think helping Azath is good, until new information proves me wrong.

Yes, I agree Cotillion does, but what about Shadowthrone? He doesnt imho, all he cares about is his plans, that and only that. And we are given the impresion atleast that Shadowthrone is in charge between the 2

[Gem Windcaster]

I think it's very difficult to discern what they're really up to -
because we don't get Laseen's or Shadowthrone's opinions imo - just
recollections of what happened - and other people's memories and/or theories.
Remember what Cotillion said to Cutter in HoC? Re-read that part. Couple that
with other tactics - for instance the trying of the Bridgeburners. I think
Ellestra's got something there. As for Laseen's and shadowthrone's
real relationship - it might be irrelevant: after all they both seem to set the
empire first. The scheme seems to be grander than just some petty
argument who should have the throne. And these are not stupid people.

All we can know for certain at this point, is that there's more going on
than meets the eye. Understatement.

[Onos]

Can anyone fill me in on what Tayschreen's agenda is? Why is he so interested in the Malazan empire? What does he get out of it? The early books dont paint him in a very good light. I have read NoK and that at least makes him seem a little more human.

I find it interesting that he is basically the last of the old guard to stick with Laseen... and even seems a participant in the culling of the rest...

[Aptorian]

I havent read NoK but:
He survived the culling of the followers of Drek
He apparently ordered the Bridgeburners into the tunnels to keep them safe
He just wanted Tattersail back in one piece because him and laseen had her pecked as the new Master of the deck
He miscalculated the power of Rake and didnt forsee that Nightchill was going to make a grab for Dragnipur at the enfilade at pale.
these are the explanations to his "evil deeds"

Personally I think that SE has painted a very weird picture of Tay. He's the most competent mage of the malaz empire, very powerful and knowledgeable yet acoording to his actions in GotM his a bumbling idiot...

Yet, when I read the hints at him in MoI, something seems unknown about him, I wouldnt be surpriesed if he was older than portraid...

[Blend]

I believe that Tayschrenn's ultimate agenda is to assure that the cult of D'Rek (his cult of D'rek) doesn't perish from all these wars. He figures that aiding the Malazan Empire is the only way to ensure the survival of his cult, despite the Empire's views on the religion of D'rek. I think it's all tied in to that. Though Tayschrenn is one of the Empire's most loyal men, I think that is only because he sees the Empire as his only salvation, and that's more important to him than anything.

I haven't read NoK, but that's the impression I get from the TMBotF books.

[Bl1nder]

Gem Windcaster;160033 said:

I think it's very difficult to discern what they're really up to -
because we don't get Laseen's or Shadowthrone's opinions imo - just
recollections of what happened - and other people's memories and/or theories.
Remember what Cotillion said to Cutter in HoC? Re-read that part. Couple that
with other tactics - for instance the trying of the Bridgeburners. I think
Ellestra's got something there. As for Laseen's and shadowthrone's
real relationship - it might be irrelevant: after all they both seem to set the
empire first. The scheme seems to be grander than just some petty
argument who should have the throne. And these are not stupid people.

All we can know for certain at this point, is that there's more going on
than meets the eye. Understatement.

Completley out of topic, but anyway, Gem why do you always write that way mate? As in you never write till the end of the page, you go to a new line like in the mid of it, liek you are writing lyrics or something?

Agree that NoK really confused my feelings about Tay, I thought him a cold heartless bastard, who had his agenda and thats that. yet in NoK hes shown as a compassionate person, who is willing to risk his life for the sake of others, really dont know. I wonder what happened to kiska, she should be in his company

[Ellestra]

Gem Windcaster;160033 said:

I think it's very difficult to discern what they're really up to -
because we don't get Laseen's or Shadowthrone's opinions imo - just
recollections of what happened - and other people's memories and/or theories.
Remember what Cotillion said to Cutter in HoC? Re-read that part. Couple that
with other tactics - for instance the trying of the Bridgeburners. I think
Ellestra's got something there. As for Laseen's and shadowthrone's
real relationship - it might be irrelevant: after all they both seem to set the
empire first. The scheme seems to be grander than just some petty
argument who should have the throne. And these are not stupid people.

All we can know for certain at this point, is that there's more going on
than meets the eye. Understatement.

Yes – all we have are people interpretations and they usually don’t have all the information and are often wrong. Several times before what everyone though was going on was false.
I wrote this because the facts we’ve seen don’t fit. She was the third most dangerous person in the Empire. For somebody over century old who managed to reach such a high position in Empire and then overtake it she acts really dumb sometimes. Maybe it was just luck and cruelty. Or maybe it is on purpose to be underappreciated by her enemies my further thoughts about this are here if you’re interested . We will probably learn this eventually. After all Laseen went from bad to sort of ok before.

Bl1nder;160060 said:

Agree that NoK really confused my feelings about Tay, I thought him a cold heartless bastard, who had his agenda and thats that. yet in NoK hes shown as a compassionate person, who is willing to risk his life for the sake of others, really dont know. I wonder what happened to kiska, she should be in his company

Tay gets more and more sympathetic in each book he's in. In NoK he seems even nice . Still I'm sure he has his own agenda, own plans. The Old Guard is full of cunning old bastards with world changing schemes.
He doesn’t seem to be bothered by his apparent imprisonment, so I think he is the only one who knows what’s the deal with letting Korbolo and Rallick take over. Or at least knows how to leave and/or get rid of them.

Kiska is still with him in TBh and Hattar too – remember meeting with Quick Ben.

[Bl1nder]

Ellestra;160112 said:

Tay gets more and more sympathetic in each book he's in. In NoK he seems even nice . Still I'm sure he has his own agenda, own plans. The Old Guard is full of cunning old bastards with world changing schemes.
He doesn’t seem to be bothered by his apparent imprisonment, so I think he is the only one who knows what’s the deal with letting Korbolo and Rallick take over. Or at least knows how to leave and/or get rid of them.

Kiska is still with him in TBh and Hattar too – remember meeting with Quick Ben.

Erm I do, but I dont remember any mentioning of them.. well im a bit short minded

[Ellestra]

Bl1nder;160181 said:

Erm I do, but I dont remember any mentioning of them.. well im a bit short minded

By Imperial Warren comes Dujek and Tayschrenn with two bodyguards. Pearl recognises Hattar and Kiska. End of chaptter two.

[Gem Windcaster]

Bl1nder;160060 said:

Completley out of topic, but anyway, Gem why do you always write that way mate? As in you never write till the end of the page, you go to a new line like in the mid of it, liek you are writing lyrics or something?

Indeed! Because beautiful beatific Gem has too many thoughts to convey!
(Alas, I cannot even endeavour to copy that crazy Kruppe persona...)

end off topic---start on topic

About Tay; anyone else got the feeling he is up to something in TbH,
and not at all so isolated as one would think?
In every other book he's been playing some sort of game.

[BridgeBurner]

Gem Windcaster;160211 said:

About Tay; anyone else got the feeling he is up to something in TbH,
and not at all so isolated as one would think?
In every other book he's been playing some sort of game.

Well, he was ready to be QB's backup in TBH, IIRC. QB not calling him to step up to the plate wouldn't change anything there. Apart from that, I'm not worried about Tayschrenn being 'locked up', as described in TBH. His conversation with Shadowthrone at the end shows he's not withdrawing, and very aware of what is going on.

Seclusion gives good opportunity to concentrate and build up power. Apart from Brys, the Ceda didn't get much visitors in MT, and we know how that turned out.

And Tayschrenn convincing D'rek not to kill him while she was doing her purging should not be thought light of. He should have put up good arguments to manage that.

I'm expecting some real fireworks from him in the future...

[Bl1nder]

I think Tay's agenda has changed somewhat, since during the emepror's time he was concentrating on his mages, and keeping them neutral. Now however, there arent many mages are there? I mean Quick being one, and thats about that. So yes there's botle and the lot in the 14th, but they arent realyl well known yet.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

This thread really inspired me to think about Laseen. Before I read this, I thought she had made some serious mistakes over the course of the series. But now I wonder. Perhaps that fear in her eyes during the confrontation with Tavore, T'amber, and Kalam, was not fear born out of them leaving her...but fear out of them sticking around and trying to depose of the two men she has set up; Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel.

This is fascinating new territory for me. The Emperor's feud with her has been sidelined because he doesn't have the time, which is probably for the better; I believe Tayschrenn was testing the waters when he probed Ammanas at the end of TBH; Ammanas' dismissal of trying to reclaim the throne backs up the thoughts Cutter had during HoC, when he imagined all sorts of ascendants flocking to destroy the Malazan Empire, whose influence expanded into two realms.

Hopefully everybody here can follow those last few lines. Thus, Laseen may be purposefully sending the 14th off. After all....how DID the Perish know to prepare that ritual two years in advance? It's kind of crazy, but perhaps Surly has more than a few cards up her sleeve.

We know that Pearl saw Dujek and Tayschrenn meet with Kalam and Quick Ben, and we know that from that scheme that current situation came about. Quick can call on Tays, but hasn't already, indicating that they expect monumental troubles in the future; trouble in which they may be seperated but need firepower. Moving on, we also are aware that Quick knows when Pearl is hiding around in warrens. Might it be too much of a stretch to suspect the players in that meeting to have known that Pearl was watching them; to have known that he would bring word back to the Empress? I think not. Therefore, Quick and Tayschrenn have thought this out to mind-boggling length. Tayschrenn is exactly where he wants to be, as evidenced by his talk with the Emperor, and though Quick Ben clearly had his moments of doubt (remember him hiding in the storage hold on Tavore's ship?) he seems to have expected most of what has happened.

Whew. So there you have it: my confused and mainly reactionary-from-this-thread take on what is going on.

[Onos]

Apt: Yes, i agree it is a weird portrayal of Tay. But as for the reasons explained... not sure if that is the truth, or just how Tay sees it or just how Tay WANTS people to see it. And i agree, for someone as compotent as him to mess up like that, feel there are things we havent been told yet. As for him being 'older', yes, perhaps some long lost person.

Blend: Not a great theory, but certainly the best i have heard. Saving D'rek at least would give him some agenda to follow. Almost see him as being, 'well somebody will use this power the malazans have, so may as well be me and i will do fewer 'bad' things and work on some of my pet projects'.

Dassem: How open do you believe QB and Tay are with each other. Neither strikes me as someone to divulge too much... And which one of the the two is in control?

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I don't believe that QB will ever be open fully with anybody. It's mentioned in BH that even Kalam really doesn't know him all that well. However, I believe that between HoC and BH, Quick came to the conclusion that, regardless of Tay's allegiance in the past, dealing with him was inevitable. Otherwise, the Emperor's discussion with Tay's at the end of BH makes little practical sense; the adjunct split from her empress, and Quick not calling on him in the fight with Icarium. Remember, the Emperor is confused as well at how these outcomes benefit Tayschrenn, and the Empire that he claims to serve.

Naturally, that discussion makes little sense as it is, but we as the reader can thumb back to HoC for a pretty little detail: in Tavor's conversation with Nok about loyalty and why the Empress' Old Guard leaders deserted her, there is clear foreshadowing for the events that take place in BH. (This takes place in the beginning of the second part of the book, right after Tavore hands out the orders to her Fists, should you be so inclined to double check the conversation.)

With this in context, one could postulate that Quick Ben actually expected the rift (as did Fiddler with Deck of Dragons game) and was simply preparing for a moment when, separated from the Malazan Empire's might, he might need to call upon the impressive killing powers of Tayschrenn. I think this would help explain why Kalam was so hesitant to choose between the Adjunct and Empress.

As for who is in control, I make no assumptions.