[Coldnight]

Altough the idea of redemption is not only associated with Chrystianity, but added the idea of tortured god it becomes pretty clear for me. Christian God wants people to bear their crosses, and CG wants everyone to wear chains...

[flea]

Gimli said:

..........What? Why do you suggest Christianity? why not muslim or virtually any other religion known to man?

This seems to me like typical egocentric christian question, always on a quest to prove to others just how religious they are and providing an oppurtunity for you pontificate about your on beliefs! sorry but no thanks!

Who the hell is pontificating? Who the hell has identified himself as a Christian here? Can you read and comprehend what was both explicit and implicit?

It is not particularly ethnocentric (not egocentric) to ask the particular question, given SEs and his audience's background. Assuming that a question about Christianity represents a Christian point of view is ridiculous and reveals much more about your own ignorance.

Granted, the better question would have been about religion in general, since SE's world is clearly a non-Western world.

Quote

does it matter? i could make an argument for a yes answer and upset a bunch of you or else do the same for a no answer and upset the rest ... all will be (relatively) clear eventually ...

There was a thread about themes. Religion and the nature of worship is obviously important to the books. Look at the number of important characters who were ex-priests, look at the comments about how the efficacy of a god is related to the number of worshipers.

I don't see why people for whom the question does not matter (e.g. Kallor and Gimli's love child) even participate in this discussion.

[Shadow_God]

The explicit connection with suffering as a positive and spiritually cleansing thing (which isn't, as far as I know, present in Judaism or Islam - except perhaps in Shi'ite views of Ali) seems to suggest Christianity more than any other Western faith. It's actively evangelistic and expansionist tone seems to rule out most of the Asiatic religions, except Buddhism. Heh. The CG as a Buddhist, there's a picture....
As for why it matters - it matters to me, I'm interested in it. So, it seems, are some other people.

[Onos]

I wouldnt get too excited there Gimli... The 3 major western religions are really pretty much the same, except for some clever marketing. So you can insert Islam and judeism over top of Christianity in these statements. Unless you mean we should incorporate Budhist or Hindi (etc) views to the CG, which i dont believe would be very accurate.

The Bonehunters i thought has some fairly subtle but scaithing comments against the CG. I at least took it to be a pretty direct hit against any religion that trumpets an afterlife at the expense of suffering now, which to me sounds fairly familiar... I suppose it could just be a coincidence that results from filling 6000 pages with words. (1000 monkeys on a 1000 typewriters will eventually say some true sounding things about the state of the worlds religions)

[Abyss]

Suffering aside, isn't a key point of the CG that he embraces imperfection and flaws... As opposed to most modern religions that preach one must overcome one's flaws?

I took that to be a more significant point than the whole suffer-now-wild-party-with-virgins-later element.

- Abyss, not that there's anything wrong with wild parties with virgins, you understand, i'm just saying...

[Battalion]

Does the Crippled God have any worshipers? I've not read about any temples built in his name yet, I don't think, and the people that summoned him are all dead.
No real religions are like that ... well okay, where I live there're more empty churches than empty prison cells, so I guess there is a match there.

[Abyss]

Well, one theory (and yes, i realize there are other theories, some of which i also like) runs that he has whole masses of followers in another world(s) whose souls are being stored in jade idols which are then sent through a dimensional rift into the Malaz world after him...

- Abyss, notes it's a testament to the brilliance and strangeness of this series that i just wrote that and it made sense...

[Monoch Ochem]

It's interesting to note that the very reference made to any parallel with Christianity here was made in a most un-Christian tone. How double tragic then for the religion to then be blamed for being egocentric when it did not assert itself at all but merely had the misfortune of being the SUBJECT of criticism.

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't the CG's 'embrace' borne of a desire to corrupt and likewise inflict pain upon all beings? The ultimate expression of bitterness and spite? His is no embrace of imperfections but a wicked, systematic corruption to bring everything to a common level of manipulation, as well as manipulating those already 'malformed' in some way. Even so, I sympathise with his plight...he was torn from his realm by those who ruthlessly sought to use him. But what he became as a result is deplorable.

How does that compare with the notion of the Christian God willingly leaving heaven, becoming flesh and suffering completely as a man, eventually to die a most horrible death? It's not about believing the story (that's up to you) but it's about the true tenets of the religion.

I still don't see the comparison and would not have raised it. But it's true that lots of other religions advocate life after death. I will categorically say though, that I was never taught that Christianity advocates suffering. There is an ANALOGY to dying a rising with Christ (hence the name) but it's an analogy... indicating that the old you is no more. And NO where is it written that if you sin you're not still a Christian. Too many stereotypes abound. It's about striving to live in a particular way BY CHOICE. Can the same be said of any blee'n CG?

[Bl1nder]

Agree with Monoch here, I mean where did the CG promised ethernal rewards and the lot after a life of serving him? Furthurmore he does not wish for his servents to die, he needs them alive so he can use them, manipulate them to achieve his goals. This goes more towards Satan, but since im far from an expert of religion I wont go any further

[Onos]

Right, he wants his servants to live long enough to accomplish his goals, but he then wants them to be as used up as possible. (aka use them as efficiently as possible) But, since he doenst acquire followers through loyalty, he has to buy it. (specifically referring to the cult started by Felisen younger with all the crippled remnants of seven cities) This would be ok, if they would receive what they were promised, but instead when they die they will receive nothing from the CG. Comparison is christian god offers us paradise for doing his will on earth, but the rub is there is no paradise. Also Felisen younger receives lots of benefits that worshippers cannot share in. (similar to a pope or cardinal) Further the worshippers have little understanding of the true purpose, politics and agenda of those who are running the cult.

[Bl1nder]

Onos;157926 said:

Right, he wants his servants to live long enough to accomplish his goals, but he then wants them to be as used up as possible. (aka use them as efficiently as possible) But, since he doenst acquire followers through loyalty, he has to buy it. (specifically referring to the cult started by Felisen younger with all the crippled remnants of seven cities) This would be ok, if they would receive what they were promised, but instead when they die they will receive nothing from the CG. Comparison is christian god offers us paradise for doing his will on earth, but the rub is there is no paradise. Also Felisen younger receives lots of benefits that worshippers cannot share in. (similar to a pope or cardinal) Further the worshippers have little understanding of the true purpose, politics and agenda of those who are running the cult.

But thats the thing, the CG never promised any rewards beyond this life. He promised to heal the tumors of that bloke who made him the deck cards. He promises Kallor power, he promised Rhuald immortality and so on, point is he promises rewards in the life the person/people is/are living atm, not beyond that. And i think no one would believe him, I mean they all know Hood is the God of death. Thats another thing that doesnt agree with christianity, there are alot of gods, therefore where God is all powerfull, in the Malazn world his power is shared by several or more Gods

[Agraba]

I am the inventor of the (Christain = Crippled) God theory, but I never actually thought it was true. But if you think about it, if God is such a guy that he'd get so pissed when people stop worshipping him that he'd actually murder the entire population, then imagine how he'd react when he went after the wrong piece of cheese and got caught in a mouse trap. Seeing as how his pride's at the roof, I can understand that he'd react that way.

The premis of my theory is based on CG being from another world (and Heboric's dream from HoC shows that different worlds can just be different planets in the universe), and that he's so damn powerful.

[Estelindis]

Agraba;157999 said:

if God is such a guy that he'd get so pissed when people stop worshipping him that he'd actually murder the entire population

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. Could you elaborate please?

[Dark Mac]

Estelindis;158000 said:

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. Could you elaborate please?

The Flood, assumably.

[Morgoth]

aye, but even if it was something else, it should be discussed in the religion thread, not here (just to stop any rising discussion dead in its tracks )

[Bl1nder]

So do we al lagree, that the CG does NOT touch Christianity in any way,shape or form?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Bl1nder;158112 said:

So do we al lagree, that the CG does NOT touch Christianity in any way,shape or form?

Obviously that's not the case, or people would not keep on starting threads like this one. You can argue fine points of doctrine and the like, but you can't deny that people read about the CG's cult, led by Felisin Fatter, and see a connection with Christianity.

[Onrack the breakable]

Well, since alot of religion is another sort of fantasy its easy to see why there may be alot of similaritys even if not intentional. Like the Dragonbone Chair books by Tad Williams had Adeon on the tree who was the son of God and whose death heralded the collapse of a Romanish empire (Nabban something). Whatever your beliefs on religion, you would have to admit that is alot more parallel to Christianity than the Crippled God in MBotF books.

You could even stretch things and say for instance, in David Drakes Lt. Leary With the Lightnings space opera books, "that mimics Christianity because Lt. Mon's wife had a child (while he was on a 2 year tour in outer space) that was an imaculate conception (at least according to her)."

Hehe. Sorry, I'm not making fun of religion so much as making fun of thinking everything is based on religion or that religion is in any way related to science.

Like, the other day my phone line went dead after a snowstorm. An old guy came from the phone company and looked at my phone jack. He LOOKED at it, didnt take out any instruments or ask any questions or even remove the cover just said, "I don't see any thing is wrong with it." Well, theres no dial tone Mr. Religious Science.

Haha. I went to college for 4 years to get a real bachelor of science degree (in engineering) and that old fart whos probably illiterate likely gets paid 10 times what I do. It makes me sick.

[flea]

Onrack the breakable;158127 said:

Sorry, I'm not making fun of religion so much as making fun of thinking everything is based on religion or that religion is in any way related to science.

But religion is related to fantasy, as you said, and it is related to the Malazan world.

Full disclosure: I majored in sociology and literature, and I am Jewish, but non-religious--if I had any faith I would be an atheist.

I think it is interesting to consider the function of religion and gods in the novels. These topics are woven into the fabric of SE's world. There are so many things that occur that cause me to think about the role of religion in the novels--Kallor's curse that Krul will lose power because he will lose worshippers; the irony of Withal (do I have the right character?) praying to Mael even though he doesn't even believe in what he is doing, then Mael shows up--is this the result of prayer or, ironically, of an unrelated decision by Mael?

Too many comments in this thread represent an adolescent understanding of, and reaction to, religion.

[Bl1nder]

As someone said, it depends on the way we read the book. Me for example, I didnt even see a single connection between MBotF, and relegion, it wasnt until this topic that I considered the possibilty. But then again, despite the fact im christian my self, I dont really care for religion, so meaby thats the main reason