[mmdw45]

[Do I need spoiler space to talk about the end of this book, or is it assumed that everyone in this forum has already finished it?]

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Although I can sort of understand how the Bridgeburners and Onearm's host are all broken up and weepy over the death of Whiskeyjack, having been with him for so long, I don't really understand why some *readers* have such a strong reaction. My main impression of Whiskeyjack is: a grizzled old veteran who has a confusingly torrid relationship with Korlat and is, overall, a pretty decent fellow. But neither his death nor Itkovian's hit me all that hard, although my hat is off to Itkovian for what he accomplished before dying. Am I missing some thematic elements? What does Whiskeyjack do that makes you care about him?

It also strikes me that when Lady Envy says, when she first meets Toc, that the Seguleh happened along and decided it would be amusing to kill her, she is almost certainly either joking, exaggerating, or lying. It seems clear that the Seguleh don't initiate combat with women, even dangerous ones like Lanas Togg and Lady Envy. Her conversation with K'rul reveals that Envy's little group of warriors was gathered purposefully, and that the Seguleh are aware that they have a common purpose; she may have been deliberately tweaking them by telling an untruth to Toc, knowing that not even Senu would deign to respond.

-Max Wilson

[Dolorous Menhir]

This is the forum for people who have read MoI already. So no need to include spoiler warnings for material from that book.

If you don't have any strong feelings towards Whiskeyjack, I suppose that's just a person-to-person thing. I thought he was a noble and sacrificing leader who cared for his men and always placed his own needs below the needs of his men and his empire. His stands in defence of Silverfox and the slaying of the Tenescowri witches to spare Rake the emotional burden are particularly noteworthy episodes which reveal the kind of man Whiskeyjack was. It is in those acts that I see the man he was and that provoke the sense of loss when his character was so cruelly ended.

I have to ask, if you don't care much for Whiskeyjack and Itkovian, what characters do you like? They don't get much more sympathetic or blatantly likable "good" guys than those two, and even their deaths couldn't move you?

As for the Lady Envy question, I can't really say. She plainly is holding the Seguleh against their will, and just as plainly their mission to teach the Pannion Domin a lesson did not include being subverted by her. I would guess the "amusing to kill her" phrase is just whimsy on Lady Envy's part, perhaps she was trying to provoke sympathy from Toc. Maybe the Seguleh even attacked her once provoked in some way - they may not initiate combat with woman, but I don't doubt they will fight one when she starts it. She probably insulted them.

[rlfcl]

i know what you mean OP, i could never make an emotional connection to Whiskeyjack, or Coltaine for that matter. Itkovian, on the other hand, i did make a connection to, since his actions were more shown within the book, rather than gathered in snippets second-hand from other characters. It helped that he was a POV character rather than somone removed from the reader such as Whiskeyjack.

as for Envy, Dolorous pretty much has it imo, at least as far as anyone can tell.

[Rahvinn]

In other books like The Song of Ice and Fire i felt tears in my eyes at certain scenes not that I gave a toss about the characters but it was how the author made me feel about them.

I would write a spoiler tag but anyone who read the first post would know the ending by now:

Whiskeyjack: At the very start I didn't like him because he had a silly name but since then he has been the embodiment of selflessness. He stood before Kallor who has lived centuries and was a master bladewielder and against Rake who most likely would've chopped him sideways. He kept his crowd in check and demanded nothing he wouldnt do himself.
He lived like a hero and died like one, I found myself nearly crying like a teenage girl but that shows how well SE makes you bond with a character.

Iktovian was introduced much later yet had a profound effect on me also. He was the Shield Anvil when there was no god to be Shield Anvil for! With no god to take the suffering he took it upon himself. When he walked down the ranks of the l'mass he cared nothing for the survival of anyone but the salvation of the several hundred thousand year old l'mass' souls, this killed him when he could have lived at least another 30 years of his life yet he chose this path.

With the fall of Coltaine I doubt i was the only one shouting at the open book for Pormqual to sally forth and rescue the remnants of the army that safeguarded the Chain of Dogs and died in vain because of the cowardly High Fist and whispering Jhistral Priest.

As for the Segulah I dont get the picture: I dont care how good a swordsman any of them are; while numbers alone done confer victory against 3 it will!
Tool could disolve and reappear anywhere but even though the Seg. could lop through foes by dozen even with Envy's assitance they would've died very quickly.
For example I do fencing in Ireland; we had a made up comp a year ago where it was 2 vs 2, one team knockd one member of the opposing team out after a few seconds so it was 2 mediocer fencers against the top ranked in Ireland and highly ranked in England also. As good as he was the two overcame him quickly with well timed attacks.
K'rul expected 3 or 4 hunrdred 11th level inniatives which would have been far more effective than Senu, Thurtle and Mok
But them you could argue Envy layered them with wards etc etc bah

[mmdw45]

Okay, so I'll have to think harder about Whiskeyjack's defense of Silverfox, although oddly enough the one I sympathize with most in that scene is Kallor. "It seems you stand alone." "It was ever thus." In spite of Kallor's flaws.

It turns out that Envy was definitely lying.

Toc: Your servant's a Seguleh?
Envy: Is that what they're called? [wrinkles brow] A familiar name, though the context escapes me. Ah well. I have gleaned their personal names, but little else. They happened by and chanced to see me--this one, who is called Senu, and two others. They concluded that killing me would break the monotony of their journey. [sigh] Alas, now they serve me.

Not only does she know full well what they Seguleh are, including that little anecdote about Rake on their island, she's well-enough acquainted with them to discuss their internal politics with K'rul. (At first I thought Envy was the one who made the comment about "With the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons," but it turns out to be K'rul. He assumes she'll know what he's talking about, though.)

Thus, it seems likely that she was lying about the manner in which she met them, as well.

Dolorous Menhir asks, if you don't like Whiskeyjack/Itkovian, who do you like? Don't get me wrong, I found Itkovian's death scene moving. Just not sad. There are a lot of *cool* characters, especially Quick Ben and Fiddler, but MoI Paran is the one I'm gladdest to have onstage. (I didn't really connect well with GotM Paran, but I only read it once, and IIRC it was mostly written several years before the rest anyway.) I like GH's description of him in HoC, too. Gives me shivers.

-Max Wilson

[mmdw45]

Rahvinn;150771 said:

As for the Segulah I dont get the picture: I dont care how good a swordsman any of them are; while numbers alone done confer victory against 3 it will!
Tool could disolve and reappear anywhere but even though the Seg. could lop through foes by dozen even with Envy's assitance they would've died very quickly.
For example I do fencing in Ireland; we had a made up comp a year ago where it was 2 vs 2, one team knockd one member of the opposing team out after a few seconds so it was 2 mediocer fencers against the top ranked in Ireland and highly ranked in England also. As good as he was the two overcame him quickly with well timed attacks.
K'rul expected 3 or 4 hunrdred 11th level inniatives which would have been far more effective than Senu, Thurtle and Mok
But them you could argue Envy layered them with wards etc etc bah

The only answer I have is that the Seguleh, and other high-end fighters, seem to have advantages in strength and speed as well as in skill. Don't know how it happens, but it could be that the Seguleh/Beklite difference is much greater than the great-fencer/mediocre-fencer difference. Maybe like great-
fencer/mediocre-fencer-handicapped-with-20-pound-weights-on-each-limb.

Keep in mind that the Seguleh, being a race of Nietzsche supermen, might well practice eugenics as well as alchemy.

-Max Wilson
Who doesn't quite see how Kilava wasted 4 K'ell Hunters while Trake couldn't even take out one. Maybe she's a smarter/less arrogant tactician, and took them one at a time? Or did she just blow them away with magic? ("Power rippled like water.")

[Dolorous Menhir]

Treach was lost in his Soletaken tiger form, as he has been for a long time. He was basically just a dumb animal that didn't stand much of a chance. Probably wasn't using magic - I don't even think Treach was a magic user, the title "First Hero" speaks to me of martial prowess rather than sorcerous ability. Well, magic use outside his Soletaken ability, which as we've seen is not restricted to mages (Buke & Messremb for example).

Whereas Kilava is an Imass Bonecaster in full command of her powers. I feel we've yet to see on-screen what a Bonecaster is truly capable of - if they can defeat Jaghut sorceries then a few Kell Hunters shouldn't be an issue for them.

[Onos]

I 'cried' much more for sadness towards the living that those that died. The dead are well... dead, but Korlat, Mallet, Dujek and the army have to keep on going. Rake too for feeling he was late.

The scene with the soldier wanting to return Iktovans helm... then seeing everyone lined up behind him. That gets me even know just thinking of it.

The intereactions between Rake and Whiskeyjack are some of best scenes of the book. (save the interactions between Onos and the Seguleh) They are very powerful, of what they show of their characters. And really says something how Rake opened up to someone. MOI really has some of the best diologue interactions of the series, with so many powerful characters interacting and having different views.

Anyway Iktovan really wanted 'peace' so him dying isnt that sad. And WJ was an old soldier and knew his death could happen at anytime. (not happy either character died, but i appreciate that some main characters can die to make you appreciate the living all the more)

[SiriusL]

Dolorous Menhir said:

His stands in defence of Silverfox and the slaying of the Tenescowri witches to spare Rake the emotional burden are particularly noteworthy episodes which reveal the kind of man Whiskeyjack was.

Indeed, and it's worth noting that his slaying of the Witches was also to spare them the horror of Rake's sword. He was a merciful man, all around. There is a reason he and Itkovian felt a kinship in the brief moments they spent together. I think a good deal MoI was dedicated to showing how WJ's character was full of integrity and "goodness", unlike so many of the gray-area types elsewhere. He was also a symbol (IMO) of the end of the obviously good people in the books (at least on Genabackis, I guess), and maybe the approach of chaos. Didn't make me cry, but I thought it was easy to see how it could.

As for the Seguleh and Envy, I never really got it, either. The Grey Swords were able to take down one KCM, and the T'lan Imass took down many more but with fair losses. I can see how three Seguleh could kill one KCM, but how could they fight four or five at a time (and more)? Was it "just" Envy's sorcery, which is apparently powerful?

And were Baaljag and Garath equal or better than Treach in his tiger form? I'd think "dumb animal" would apply there, too, though they are clearly more than that.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Well considering one was Fanderay (iirc), then they would have been a match for Treach.

As for the Seguleh, we know that Rake only beat the Seventh, and the Third was better than the Logros Tlan Imass First Sword, so them being able to take down KCCM kell hunters isnt too unlikely.

[SiriusL]

I was never clear whether she was Fanderay the whole time, or just an Ay with Fanderay locked inside.

I certainly think the Segulah were capable of taking down one or two KCCM, but loads of them? Maybe the KCCM only attacked in groups of five or six at a time, in which case the Seguleh, Tool, the pups, and Envy would be fine.

For the Pannion armies sent against them, I believe it's stated that Envy's sorcery was usually more than enough, as it was the kind that just rolls along destroying everything in its path.

[Dark Mac]

I'm pretty sure the Seguleh could take down a fairly large number of KCCM without too much difficulty. Their skill is pretty intense.

[blewin]

mmdw45;150710 said:

Although I can sort of understand how the Bridgeburners and Onearm's host are all broken up and weepy over the death of Whiskeyjack, having been with him for so long, I don't really understand why some *readers* have such a strong reaction. My main impression of Whiskeyjack is: a grizzled old veteran who has a confusingly torrid relationship with Korlat and is, overall, a pretty decent fellow. But neither his death nor Itkovian's hit me all that hard, although my hat is off to Itkovian for what he accomplished before dying. Am I missing some thematic elements? What does Whiskeyjack do that makes you care about him?

uh, I'm one of the few, like you, who don't really get that much emotional for seeing Whiskeyjack killed. Though I did find it surprising as I read that part... sudden death by Kallor's hand.

Didn't feel that much for Itkovian either. Could be that he isn't one of my favourites, oh, and that I don't like his name. *ponder* I guess I don't really like his act of refusal. If he had accepted Togg and Fandaray's help, he wouldn't have died. Don't like that stubborn streak of his.

woh, been using too many 'like' and 'don't like' in this post!

[Dancer+]

I never felt particularly emotional at Whiskeyjack's death either, even though i agree strongly with how he lived his life and his values. I saw his death as pro-probable and found that it fit nicely within the story, a bit of weight to the scene. Perhaps its only because i liked Kallor more although i did like both of them.

The seguleh lower initiatives imo wouldn't be a match for the KCCM, perhaps one-two max they could kill working in teams but i still get the idea they are inferior beings in physical terms.

[polishgenius]

I personally like Whiskeyjack, but I can see why people don't, it's made so blatantly obvious that he's meant to be helpful and noble and selfless and generally special yet still flawed that makes him all the more likeable that I can see why people just didn't react to it. Itkovian's similar but we get his PoV so it's more moving, plus he generally seems more well developed.

[The .303 bookworm]

Rahvinn;150771 said:

As for the Segulah I dont get the picture: I dont care how good a swordsman any of them are; while numbers alone done confer victory against 3 it will!
Tool could disolve and reappear anywhere but even though the Seg. could lop through foes by dozen even with Envy's assitance they would've died very quickly.
For example I do fencing in Ireland; we had a made up comp a year ago where it was 2 vs 2, one team knockd one member of the opposing team out after a few seconds so it was 2 mediocer fencers against the top ranked in Ireland and highly ranked in England also. As good as he was the two overcame him quickly with well timed attacks.
K'rul expected 3 or 4 hunrdred 11th level inniatives which would have been far more effective than Senu, Thurtle and Mok
But them you could argue Envy layered them with wards etc etc bah

They were sent out on what was essentially a near Suicide mission (Mok was approaching the Seconds level of prowess and without the second around the first was no doubt feeling an itch around his shoulder blades while watching the ambitious young third "The First is the first and the Third is the Third" ).

In addition we're talking about a world with 22 meter tall humans and blindingly fast giant undead lizards, and divine empowerment, superhuman prowess in arguably augmented humans isn't too much of a stretch

[mmdw45]

Okay, now I think I understand the Whiskeyjack/Itkovian connection. This thread (http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/archiv...php?t-4845.html) made it gel for me--imagining the story as a series of paintings. In my re-read of MoI, in fact, I'm at the beginning of Book 3: Capustan, and taking the time to imagine each scene as a painting slows down my reading a lot and increases my enjoyment of the material enormously. I understand that SE was a painter originally, so perhaps this is how it was meant to be enjoyed.

Gruntle, in a tavern, six or seven other lonely foreigners ("rocks") nursing their drinks while a horde of Tenescowri prowl outside the walls. A startled cat glances in Gruntle's direction as a mouse scurries for safety.

I like it.

-Max Wilson