[blewin]

I'm just rereading HoC and came across the part where the Lioson were thinking of seeking out Icarium, whom they called "an old friend".

How are those two related? I don't recall seeing the Lioson again in subsequent books.

[Falco]

Never explained really, although there's bound to be a an Osserc-Icarium connection I imagine. Those two are old and powerful enough to have joined up at some point...SE will get around to explaining it I'm sure.

[GardenGnome]

Almost all people have, at one point or another, run into Icarium, and they have legends about him. Darujhistan, the Teblor, certain other people you haven't met in/before HoC...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Didn't the Liosan call Icarium the "Slayer of the Ten Thousand" or something like that? Maybe he was on their side during some battle.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

They meant Icarium?

Bear in mind I havent slept for 24 hours, and slept only a few hours in the few days before, but I assumed they meant L'oric.

Sensing a local Liosan who's blending in and hiding in the area, and the Liosan then proceed to move towards Raraku and where L'oric is, not where Icarium is.

[SiriusL]

Dolorous Menhir;146023 said:

Didn't the Liosan call Icarium the "Slayer of the Ten Thousand" or something like that? Maybe he was on their side during some battle.

Oddly enough, I was just rereading this part, too. I definitely got the impression that he was involved in some battle--maybe he killed a bunch of Tiste Andii at some point?

Curious that they think of him as friendly enough to help them. We know he's normally a nice, helpful guy, but the Liosan seem to know him from one of his rages.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Well the Liosan so like to wipe out anything they see as not good enough, so if they caught Icarium destroying pretty much anything non-Liosan they'd probably assume him to be an ally.

[blewin]

Thelomen Toblerone;146056 said:

They meant Icarium?

Bear in mind I havent slept for 24 hours, and slept only a few hours in the few days before, but I assumed they meant L'oric.

Sensing a local Liosan who's blending in and hiding in the area, and the Liosan then proceed to move towards Raraku and where L'oric is, not where Icarium is.

"Who is this old friend, Seneschal?' Enias asked.
'The Maker of Time, Brother Enias.'
Malachar slowly nodded. A friend of the Tiste Lioson indeed. Slayers of the Ten Thousand. Icarium.

-----------

I'm still not convinced about Icarium. The Nameless one has tricked Mappo into guarding Icarium, making up the tale of Icarium destroying the land. But did Icarium participate in any other battles? gee, now that got me interested.... he's the son of a Jaghut, so that means he must have suffered from T'lan Imass persecution for a time? wonder who else has stood in his way while he tried to free his father (besides the Azath).

*brood* so many questions now. What makes Icarium so powerful? he's not a walking warren like Karsa. And as a Jaghut, why can't he access Omtose Phillack?

sorry, getting side-tracked here.

We still haven't seen much of the Lioson, how they play in the larger scheme of things. We've been introduced to the Edur in later books... but Lioson? :cool:

[Falco]

blewin;146191 said:

*brood* so many questions now. What makes Icarium so powerful? he's not a walking warren like Karsa. And as a Jaghut, why can't he access Omtose Phillack?

This has been somewhat explained by HoC, no? I can't remember so I'm not going to post here...

[Folken]

Slayer of the Ten Thousand doesn't have to mean that he fought in a battle. Maybe he went on a rampage and kill ten thousand? The size of a city would be 10,000 people...*dunno*

The TL's are a mystery and I'm not sure what role they'll play in the remaining novels considering their God has left them and they've made all of one appearance in the novels.

[Abyss]

Notable is the conversation between, i think, Onrack and Trull, or one of the other Imass chasing the Unbound, where they note that as far as the Imass knew, there were no Tiste Liosan.

But obviously they've been around, because the QoD compliments Loric on how well he hides his Liosan blood posing human.

As for Iccy's link to them, well, he's been wandering around for ages, met all kinds of new and interesting people, and killed lots of them. It's not hard to come up with a plethora of situations where he would have gotten ticked off and killed a few thou or so whre the Liosan would notice.

Also, as i think about it, consider Iccy's relationship to the Teblor - he finds a bunch of Thelomen Toblakai in the process of eroding into savages, sends them off into the plateau with a way of life that ensures the strong survive, bloodlines are mixed, and they mostly stay out of the way of encroaching civilizations for a while. Maybe Iccy found the Liosan in similar straights and set them on a path. And then promptly forgot all about it and went for ice cream or something, but i digress.

- Abyss, frequently derails chain of thought for ice cream. ooooo... fudge swirl!

[SiriusL]

Mmmm...fudge swirl.

What were we talking about again?


Oh, right, Icarium. And the Liosan. It does seem odd that the T'lan Imass hadn't heard of the Liosan, when others clearly had. Onrack certainly knew about the division of Mother Dark's children, and seemed to know enough to wax philosophical about the Liosan being a Warrior-Priest instead of a Sorcerer.

:confused:

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well Quick Ben - and the human race in general - only appear to know of the Tiste Edur from the writings of Gothos. If the Edur - who actually live on the same world as the other species - are so little known, then the Liosan should be far more obscure since they are totally isolated and isolationist, and always appear to have been so.

[Urko Crust]

blewin;146191 said:

*brood* so many questions now. What makes Icarium so powerful? he's not a walking warren like Karsa. And as a Jaghut, why can't he access Omtose Phillack?

He is only a half blood Jaghut, a jhag, so that might explain why he cannot access omtose phellack. wasnt he made more powerful during the destruction/severe wounding of an azath house that had imprisoned his father? Anyway it has been stated that the nameless ones created him.

i think it likely that icarium encountered the liosan on one of his random wonderings, and that he left one of his devices.
Now, do you think these particular liosan had personal knowledge of icarium or just knew of him from legends? that they could sense him suggests personal knowledge, that they call him friend suggests incomplete knowledge of his potential. im inclined towards legends because even crokus was aware that icarium was an unpredictable, walking death sentence.

[Fanatic-Templar]

We know from Anomander Rake that Icarium visited him around 800 years ago, in the company of Mappo - and Osric. Since this was before Osric's disappearance, maybe Icarium had something to do with it, or the Liosan.

[Onos]

Good call on that. If Osric knows of Iccy then we can infer that the TL also do.

[Battalion]

Maybe it was from that meeting where the TL heard about Icarium. Osserc was fighting Rake, Brood stepped in to stop the fight, Icarium started screaming and beat them all up, before Mappo smashed him over the head, and they all got drunk together.

Or, maybe not.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That get-together was supposed to be a thousand years ago, right? I get the impression from HoC that Osric has been out of contact with his Liosan followers for a lot longer than that. We can't assume that any knowledge Osric is known to possess has been passed along the Tiste Liosan as a whole.

[Abyss]

Plus we don't know how long Loric and his sidekick demon were pretending to be Ossi in some fashion.

- Abyss, y'know, between various family members we meet later and Loric, I would love to see Osserc's family in a reality tv show... 'The Ossi-bornes'... oh jeez, i think i have my next .sig series...