[Atrate61]

Hi all:

I'm very interested to hear everyone's thoughts on these two. For me, they helped to make the book a lot more interesting. When Bottle "sees" that the two small skeletons contain the souls of dragons, that really took me aback.

I'm reading the book for the second time, and while I don't remember what ultimately happens to them (if anything), I am noticing that they are kind of mirroring what happens around them.

Anyone else find these two of any interest?

Cheers!

[Dolorous Menhir]

I would like to know what their relationship with Kallor was.

If they were alive and in dragon form when they dealt with him (as the quote says, he feared them), then that means they were killed after that, in the "modern" period and are thus not "Sundering of KE" casualties. That's a big if though.

So who's been killing dragons in that timescale (human era, last 120,000 years)?

[Illuyankas]

The Deragoth come to mind, especially under Dessimbelackis' control.

[Abyss]

(ASIDE: elements of this thread might be better discussed in the RG forum so we can ref the prologue - any Mod/Admin agree and want to move it?)

I think Apsalar made the point that they had taken on elements of the bodies they were haunting (Andii?), so whatever their personalities may have been, what we saw wasn't the originals.

For all we know, they may have been something else and just hung around the bodies of dead dragons long enough for Bottle to mistakenly make that observation, altho the (utterly, totally, awesomely fun) scene where they intimidate the Hounds suggests he was probably right.

It's possible souls of powerful beings tend to have power even after the body is dead (note Scabby not killing Ruin ouright in the MT prologue), so if they ARE dragon souls, then a certain amount of power may still attach. For all we know, they may have encountered Kallor in different bodies from their original draconic ones, or they may have been draconic soletaken... no way to know how many of those have been around over the milenia, what with Tiam being such a skany ho and all.

- Abyss, cleverly avoided RG prologue spoilers there, yes he did, my preciousss....

[Onrack the breakable]

I think its pretty obvious they are dragons. In addition to Bottle saying they are dragon souls possessing the bones, they also display intimate knowledge of Starvald Demlain - the dragon warren/realm. They also act dragonlike in many, many instances. They are rather silly, but not brooding and boring, or self rightous fanatics like most Tiste. Edgwalker is mentioned telling Kalams adopted children dragon storys, some wise some foolish...

I think Telorast and Curdle were what he had in mind when describing foolish dragons. Is Edgwalker a remnant or limited manifestation of Draconus? It seems so but thats not the point. I think it was the hounds of shadow and their original master - Draconus that put an untimely end to their knavish adventures. Some of the things they say suggest that.

Its really hard to dislike Telorast and Curdle no matter how foolish, untrustworthy, undependable, and underhanded they may be, because unlike most dragons they at least seem to have something of a sense of humor. Although, if back in dragon forms they would probably unleash alot of mayhem just to keep things interesting. Like stealing temple coffers (Apsalars hehe, stealing from the godess of theives ) and making tyrants like Kallor sh_t their pants, just for laughs.

[Obdigore]

1) Onrak, I think that Edgewalker is Draconus has been shut down pretty thoroughly.
2) Weren't Telorast and Curdle said to have been under the influence of Edgewalker?
3) Although I enjoy Abyss' theory that they were just in 'possession' of dragon corpses for so long, they seem like them, I think this is pretty far-fetched
4) They are hilarious, and, very fun to have around. I would enjoy having them follow tehol and bugg around for a bit... that would be a fun party to listen too.

[Folken]

Why do people think that Draconus is Edgewalker...I see no evidence to even suggest that. Also where do you get Draconus as the master of the Hounds of Shadow? Draconus is related to Dark not Shadow.

If them two are dragons btw...are they pure bloods? or mixed? If they're mixed it would make sense that they stayed back and could have been killed after the whole sundering of KE bit. They could also have tried to take the Throne of Shadow at a later time (we know Shadow has seen other rulers after the sundering), and Rake or somebody came and smacked them silly.

If they're pure then well I'm confused as to why they would still be here. We know of 4 pure blood dragons 3 got owned by Rake and the other is shagging Rake lol

[Bl1nder]

They should be Dragons, since when Apsalar, dances the shadows, to help Quick ben rescue his sister, she says to that bloke with the horse kicked face "Hurry, I dont know how curdle and and telorast are managing the bluff on the hounds, but it wont last long". Perhaps its more than a bluff..

[Onrack the breakable]

Well, Draconus is the only one I could think of off hand. The fact that Edgewalker manifests as a passive bundle of bones and yet claims to be an "elemental force" suggests he is an elder god who somehow "died". Draconus is the only one that comes to mind. Maybe Grizzen Farl but we know nothing about him. Scabby is no elder god nor elemental force o he's out right there.

If the theory that Draconus = Edgewalker has been so thoroughly shut down, then I would like to at least hear some evidence. That Draconus was an elder god "of dark" doesn't mean he didn't make shadowkeep or even the entire realm of KE. Remember Draconus is not just a typical elder god like that Ardatha goddess of spiders, he was referred to as a "blacksmith of the abyss who pounded suns to life". He also forged Dragnipur (or whatever Rakes stolen sword is called) which contains the gate to Dark. Saying that Draconus couldn't manage a limited manifestation in KE fragments seems dubious. How can you kill an elemental force?

For Telorast and Curdle, it could turn out they are both frog spirits since this is fantasy and SE can write anything he likes and its pointless to argue then. But from all the evidence they are obviously dragons. No single piece of evidence is all that convincing, but dam when you have thousands of pieces of evidence that all point to the same conclusion then you may want to consider at least the possiblity...

[Obdigore]

Onrack, DM has posted a thread about how neither Draco or Scabby are edgewalker. Now I can't find it... Hopefully someone can come to my rescue.

I still think Edgewalker is K'rul, but the only thing to support that is when he is talking to Kallor in MoI and says something like 'My powers have changed, I have adapted', but that is really too thin a thread, whereas there is Nothing that anyone has been able to find that suggests either Draco or Scabby are Edgewalker. For all we know, he could be Grizzen Farl. Or more likely, some other, previous unmentioned, Elder God.

Going to go look for those threads, and If i find, will post.

[Onrack the breakable]

Thanks,

Search engines and me don't get along too well. I was thinking that supposedly all the elder gods were children of mother dark so they are all "of the dark" but if anything I always thought Draconis was the elder god of dragons. Which is why it seemed he would be edgewalker since he knows so much about dragons and commands dragons (Telorast and Curdle).

Maybe it is K'rul, that does seem likely and of course Krul would know as much of dragons as Draconis. I think its interesting that we see K'rul, Draconis, and Sister of Cold Nights (Nightchill) first. They seem the oldest and most primal of elder gods.

It would be nice to get a listing of at least most of the elder gods. If not Draconis there seems to be some kind of elder god of shadows working behind the scenes in other places if not Edgewalker himself.

Maybe I'm wrong, it seems that if Telorast and Curdle are dragons, they are dead dragons. Or could they be sleeping like those 3 chained in the dragon circle? When demons die, except unless killed by something like Rakes sword, they just return to their home realm. But then other demons like those Kenralah seem to die for good if killed away from home. Since its fantasy it doesn't have to make sense I guess.

Back in MT those two sister dragons Menandore and Sukul Andaka seemed a bit like Telorast and Curdle but more martial like dragon warriors instead of sneak thieves & hoodlums T&C seem to be. There was a fairly long list of dragons of pure blood and soultaken/elient so many of those could be acting behind the scenes similar to elder gods. They seem to be relatively close power wise and "you suspect dragons are at the heart of what is to come". Also, the deck of dragons imply that dragons are running the show now. Did that occur simply by Rake killing Draconus? But the holds are still active and are far more powerful even if alot closer to chaos. It seems each new book rewrites "history" or maybe just that you can't really believe anything said in any of the books so far because it may be later revealed as mistaken or total fabrication. Like anything viewed from the Edur perspective, or Letheri, or most others. Hard to get any sense of what's really going on.

Bring on the dragons! The more dragons the better. Just let us know a little of what their goals are. Obviously, Telorast and Curdle's main goal is to cheat them all and regain their thrones. But cheat who? And what thrones?

[Obdigore]

Here is a thing about Draconus and Edgewalker.

http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=4730

Here is one about Drac and Scabby not being Edgewalker (Thnx Hetan)

http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...ight=edgewalker

As to those three being the most primal gods, I believe they were 3 of the few (5 or 6?) elders we have seen so far that survived the fall of the CG.

I do agree that Telorast and Curdle are dead dragon spirits.

Also, I think the thieves and hoodlums thing comes from the Tiste bodies they were 'guarding' for such a long time.

I don't know if Dragons are running the show, per se, but most ascendants seem to be soletaken... and, since dragons are the creaters/protectors of warrens, I do think they have a critical role in the upcomming battle. (Which is going to be nothing like what any of us expect, I can't wait.)

Me: He remembered about the throne!
Other-Me: what throne?
Me: Thats right, there was no throne.
Other-Me: yes, what throne are we talking about?
Me: I don't know, where is this throne?

[Bl1nder]

I re-valuated my opinion, I dont think Curdle and Telorast are dragons. Why you ask? Well when they see Apsalar starting her Shadow Dance, Telorast says "Dont EVER cross that one Curdle", which doesnt make sense, surley a dragon has no reason to be affraid of a shadow dancer, let alone 2 dragons

[Obdigore]

Bl1nder, she was exceptional at shadowdancing, and is most likely and ascendant, or close to it.

Even dragons need to be carefull around ascendants.

[Obdigore]

P485 of tBH. Edit: Hardcover edition.

Fid: Bottle?
Bottle: Sergeant? Oh, Sorry. I was just wondering.
Fid: Wondering What?
Bottle: Well, why Apsalar has two dragons in tow.
Fid: They're not dragons. They're tiny lizards-
Bottle: No, Sergeant, they're dragons.
Slowly, Fiddler's eyes Widened.
Bottle'd known he wouldn't like it.

That is very end of chapter 13.

[Aptorian]

Its bottle that makes one his off hand-how-did-he-know-that "of course it is" comments about them.

It goes something in the lines of:
Fiddler: "bla. bla. lizard rats"
Bottle:" "Yeah but who's the dragonghosts riding them?"
Fiddler: "I hate you!"
Bottle: *Shrug*

EDIT: Oops, Obdi beat me to it...

[Onrack the breakable]

Thats not the only evidence they're dragons, but it is evidence even the most thickskulled would have difficulty misunderstanding.

[Falco]

Play nice ladies and gents...