[Aimless]

What the hell, Macros.

You admit that there are plenty of gay parents out there that do a great job. You can't deny that there are plenty of straight parents that do a lousy job.

And yet you are hung up on the genders of the parents.

Even though you clearly recognise that it has no bearing on how good a job they'll do.

And then you have the nerve to say that Madonna shouldn't be allowed to raise a child, I mean what the hell...

Baffling.

Look man, it's not enough to just think. You have to think well. You're not doing that, and I'd like to know why you are not thinking critically about your opinions and beliefs.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Nequam;337140 said:

Hmmm. That makes sense....but, well, ummm, I don't wanna be a homophobe.

I like what Morgoth said better.



Is it any form of homophobia to think that many gay men are incredibly funny. I can't help but laugh at the way many of the designers on TV talk, look, and act. I don't mean to offend them, but I have never met one gay person who actually talks like them and has all of those erratic body...movments. I almost think they chose those people on purpose.

I don't think it's homophobic to like the gay men you see on tv, why would it be? Liking them is the opposite of being homophobic.

It might mean you're gay though.

[Nequam]

:shocked:


I didn't exactly say I like him. I was laughing at the way he talked and acted. Mocked his demeanor and subconsciously blamed it on his homosexuality. I guess it wouldn't be homphobia, but I still feel kinda bad about it.

But it's so silly I laugh. I can't take him serious no matter what he says. If he was trying to warn me about something or whatever I wouldn't be able to listen.

[Morgoth]

Nequam;337134 said:

Sweet! Yeah, so I'm not a homophobe RLY.

I am thoroughly amazed that you would just go around marking people as homophobic based on your definition of it.


Can I ask you Morgoth; what is it that offends you when men hit on you. Isn't it just showing you that you are attractive, and therfore should boost your self-esteem at least a little? We are just trying to help lower suicide rates! :cool:

...but in all seriousness, what about it offends you?

I never said it offends me. It repulses in a purely irrational manner. I'm not offended by it. they have as much right to hit on people as anyone else.

[Nequam]

Oh, well then I should have said: what repulses you? Or is just simply the feeling you get, and you aren't sure why?

[Morgoth]

Nequam;337175 said:

Oh, well then I should have said: what repulses you? Or is just simply the feeling you get, and you aren't sure why?

Pretty much. As I said, it's irrational. I try not to let it show, but it's not really something I can do anything about.

[Macros]

was directed to this quite frankly disturbing (slightly non relavent) story

Aimless, everyone entitled to thier own beliefs, mine will not affect anyone other than me, I will never be in a position to say if people adopt or not, if I am then the world has gone decidedly wrong and we are in an alternative universe. I dont se why this upsets you so much, I don't think gay couples should adopt, so what, is that affect you, or in fact anyone else inn the world? no, its the way I was raised, the environment I was raised in and likely my surrounding environments today all contributing. Deal with it.
I don't mean to get irate but your persistence that I'm wrong is considerably more obtuse than my "irrational" beliefs. In this debate there can't be a right or wrong, I hold to what I think, wether the world agrees or no I dont give a flying fuck. Call me what ever you like, I'm not a homophobe and because I dont want to watch dudes make out doesn't make me one, if you wanna watch guys get it on feel free, I wont be joining you, its a scene that holds no appeal for me. Considering my surroundings and people I hang out with I'm ridiculously tolerant, so long ass they're not traffic wardens, mimes or french they're ok by me.

[Aimless]

Macros;337185 said:

In this debate there can't be a right or wrong

What makes you think that there is no right or wrong in this matter?




My problem is more with the way you relate to your beliefs than with the specific beliefs themselves.

First you try to justify your position through arguments about nature.

You claim that you hold the views you hold simply because of how you and your parents were raised.

And then now you go back on that, essentially saying that you don't have reasons, just beliefs, and that you have those because of the way you were raised and the environment you've grown up in.



Why do you not care one bit if you're right or not? If you're thinking or not? What reason do you have for not thinking, for not looking critically at your beliefs? Why do you act as if it's a good thing to ignore other people and to ignore the faults that are present in your thinking?

That's what I'm trying to understand, now. You are obviously aware of the possibility that you may be wrong, you clearly suspect that your beliefs may not be based on facts and sound reasoning, and still you feel the right thing to do is to ignore those problems.

What on earth makes you think that that is a good approach to your life???

[Morgoth]

Morgoth;337177 said:

Pretty much. As I said, it's irrational. I try not to let it show, but it's not really something I can do anything about.

Also, I suppose I should change my wording somewhat. I'm at work and thus not really in a position to consider my words carefully, though I should in a debate such as this. Repulse is too strong a word. I dislike it. It makes me uncomfortable. But repulsed is not an accurate description. Sorry

[Aimless]

I personally don't see why it is anymore irrational than the dislike a girl might have of getting unwanted attention from men at a club.

[Macros]

What makes you think that there is no right or wrong in this matter?

[/quote]

Care to conclusively end the arguement without relating personal experiences or your own opinions/ suppositions?

Quote

My problem is more with the way you relate to your beliefs than with the specific beliefs themselves.

First you try to justify your position through arguments about nature.

You claim that you hold the views you hold simply because of how you and your parents were raised.

And then now you go back on that, essentially saying that you don't have reasons, just beliefs, and that you have those because of the way you were raised and the environment you've grown up in.

Not in the slightest, I firmly believe its un-natural, these beliefs likely stem from my upbringing and surroundings, isn't that where most people get their attitude/beliefs/whatever from. My beliefs arent reasons for any arguements, they're jsut beliefs? please make correct accuations

Quote

Why do you not care one bit if you're right or not? If you're thinking or not? What reason do you have for not thinking, for not looking critically at your beliefs? Why do you act as if it's a good thing to ignore other people and to ignore the faults that are present in your thinking?

Who am I ignoring? I'm not changing my belief because its something I believe, whats not to understand? I never said I dont care if I'm right or wrong, there is no right or wrong, I don't care if other people look down on my opinions, a vast difference you seem to be ignoring

Quote

That's what I'm trying to understand, now. You are obviously aware of the possibility that you may be wrong, you clearly suspect that your beliefs may not be based on facts and sound reasoning, and still you feel the right thing to do is to ignore those problems.

What on earth makes you think that that is a good approach to your life???

It hasn't steered me wrong yet and I've seen nothign that if we went around changing our beliefs/ attitudes everytime there was the possibility we were wrong about sometihng nothing much would get done in the world nopw would it?

[Obdigore]

Aimless;337199 said:

I personally don't see why it is anymore irrational than the dislike a girl might have of getting unwanted attention from men at a club.

It isn't.

[Optimus Prime]

I don't get why people have such a problem with homosexuality or the fact that any homosexual wants a kid. Why the hell do you care? Who are you or anybody else to tell someone they can't be happy? Why does it matter that two men or two women want to get married? Marriage was something created by people....it's not some sacred right between a man and a woman.

There's no evidence that suggests a kid growing up in a same sex marriage household is going to have any more problems than one that isn't. Why are people so afraid of this issue?

[Aimless]

Macros;337211 said:

But it is entirely incorrect to assume that the only basis for our beliefs is our upbringing!

For example, I don't believe in a god, but I was not brought up in an atheist home.

And, for all intents and purposes, I "believe" in the validity of the theory of evolution, but that's certainly never come up in any discussion at home.

Our beliefs are based on a great many things. Upbringing--what we are told and taught by our parents and other adults, and possibly also our peers, during childhood--is just one of the things that shape our beliefs. We can also form our own beliefs or modify our existing ones through inquiry. Through research. Through critical thinking.

Quote

It hasn't steered me wrong yet and I've seen nothign that if we went around changing our beliefs/ attitudes everytime there was the possibility we were wrong about sometihng nothing much would get done in the world nopw would it?

Consider the fact that, in the scientific exploration of our world, we are constantly aware of the possibility that we can always be wrong, and constantly ready (ideally, at least) to reassess what we know/think we know/believe. Can you truthfully say that the scientific method doesn't get anything done?




You've said twice now that there is no right or wrong.

Tell me, is it true or untrue that smoking can fuck up your lungs?

That is a question we can and have answered, and the answer will be true even if you believe otherwise.

It's conceivable that we can similarly investigate the matter of whether or not being raised by homosexual parents is unacceptably bad for a child. The answer may not have the same strength, admittedly, but the question isn't one that we can't attempt to answer through scientific inquiry (rather than through belief).

[Aimless]

Xander;337232 said:

There's no evidence that suggests a kid growing up in a same sex marriage household is going to have any more problems than one that isn't. Why are people so afraid of this issue?

I'm starting to think that it isn't necessarily so much about the issue of letting them have kids as about the issue of having to look at your beliefs and opinions and then possibly having to discard them.

I can see how that would be deeply unsettling and thus to be avoided at all costs.

[Optimus Prime]

There are so much bigger issues plaguing the world today, and issues like this seem to rip people apart. Studies show that homosexual behavior, not necessarily sex, has been seen in close to 1500 species, this goes from Primates to worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. If that isn't "natural" I don't know what is.

[paladin]

Xander;337232 said:

I don't get why people have such a problem with homosexuality or the fact that any homosexual wants a kid. Why the hell do you care? Who are you or anybody else to tell someone they can't be happy? Why does it matter that two men or two women want to get married? Marriage was something created by people....it's not some sacred right between a man and a woman.

There's no evidence that suggests a kid growing up in a same sex marriage household is going to have any more problems than one that isn't. Why are people so afraid of this issue?

same reason that animals outcast one another for one instinct or another. its an instinctual reaction to perceived weakness or dramatic difference that doesnt fit their "idea" of life(basically, natural selection). lest you forget, humans are mammals, members of the animal kingdom.

[Macros]

considering the base instinct of living things is to continue their line its un-natural.
Following that, its un-natural for two animals of the same sex to have a child, seems fairly simple to me

[Terez]

paladin;337250 said:

same reason that animals outcast one another for one instinct or another. its an instinctual reaction to perceived weakness or dramatic difference that doesnt fit their "idea" of life(basically, natural selection). lest you forget, humans are mammals, members of the animal kingdom.

Aren't humans supposed to be better than animals?

[Optimus Prime]

Terez;337262 said:

Aren't humans supposed to be better than animals?

Lovely

I can't really comment much on this because it's personal to me. (Above posts have started to anger me, I must admit) My brother happens to be gay and the idea of anybody daring to tell him what he can and can't do makes me want to crush skulls. I hope he gets married and goes traipsing down the main street of all the homophobes cities. I don't get the hate and fear...so I'll leave this thread.

Peace