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I think it would be easier if a reader makes some assumptions:
1. He/she is not expected to immediately see a connection between multiple story lines;
2. He doesn't have to memorize all the names and locations at once;
3. He won't be reminded every 10th page about Who is Who and What and Why;
4. He has to take some facts on a face value with no immediate explanations.
And above all the reader just has to be patient. All will be explained in due time and there will be moments or revelation... It's like meeting a really interesting person: he won't tell you his life story on your first date, right? You'll get it little by little.
In any case, such was my experience with MBotF so far.
What is it about this book that's hard to get into?
#102
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Posted 20 June 2010 - 09:14 PM
when i first started GoTM, i had to stop and take breaks in between because it got so boring. but as soon as you get around the halfway point of the book, you see how all the characters start to come together towards a common enemy, and by that point i loved the book.
when is started DHG, on the other hand, i thought that now that i had started reading SE, i'd be able to get into the book faster...but i was wrong. it took me until the second half of the book AGAIN to get into the plot.
In the end, you need to have patience when reading steven erikson books.
when is started DHG, on the other hand, i thought that now that i had started reading SE, i'd be able to get into the book faster...but i was wrong. it took me until the second half of the book AGAIN to get into the plot.
In the end, you need to have patience when reading steven erikson books.
"The red ink had been watered down. He painted wash on the map, covering areas now held by the Malazan Empire. Fully one half of the map...the north half...was red. Baruk jumped, his right forearm jerking out and knocking over the inkwell. The red ink poured across his map. Cursing, Baruk sat back. His eyes widened as he watched the spreading stain over Darujhistan and continue south to Catlin..."
#103
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Posted 21 June 2010 - 02:36 AM
Quote
In the end, you need to have patience when reading steven erikson books.
It's like reading Frank Herbert's Dune Series. Prepare to be confused often and reread multiple times.
#104
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Posted 21 June 2010 - 08:56 PM
I''ll admit I was lost during my first attempt at Gardens of the Moon. Trying to figure out what made it hard I've arrived at the following conclusions:
* There is a distinct lack of description of people's appearances. I mean, I'm on book five and I still think of Kalam as a white guy. Quick Ben I see as a bald asian with a moustache. The Tiste Edur, I envision them as bald elves. And so on.
* There is a lack of exposition, more so in the first book than the others. Now that I'm on book five I'm seeing how things come together, but damn Erikson doesn't shy away from being cryptic +3
* Different plotlines I'm fine with, but it is hard to see any connection between them in Gardens of the Moon
* Really, finishing the book I still had no clue what I was reading but now I look forward to re-reading it. And I thought A Game of Thrones was complex ^^
* I guess I had to find the right sort of mindset to properly "see" the world. I mean, it took me a long time to just accept that the books are full of crazy stuff like dinosaurs with blades for hands. I thought Erikson was being much more figurative in his writing than he actually is.
So, when I read it the first time I just couldn't latch onto his concepts. Like Moon's Spawn. What the hell was that? I had to ask to find out it is indeed a floating rock. It is so much more obvious now, it's a great feeling really to explore the world this way. I love that he chose to do it the
hard way because the reward is so much higher.
* Character names. Lots of them are silly and is a problem I still have with the books. Not a biggie though
* Some seemingly very random moments, especially in book 1+2 that scream "This happened in the roleplaying game we played so I am gonna include it although there is no literary need". I am thinking specifically of you, bucket of healing water conveniently placed at the deadhouse's exit
* There is a distinct lack of description of people's appearances. I mean, I'm on book five and I still think of Kalam as a white guy. Quick Ben I see as a bald asian with a moustache. The Tiste Edur, I envision them as bald elves. And so on.
* There is a lack of exposition, more so in the first book than the others. Now that I'm on book five I'm seeing how things come together, but damn Erikson doesn't shy away from being cryptic +3
* Different plotlines I'm fine with, but it is hard to see any connection between them in Gardens of the Moon
* Really, finishing the book I still had no clue what I was reading but now I look forward to re-reading it. And I thought A Game of Thrones was complex ^^
* I guess I had to find the right sort of mindset to properly "see" the world. I mean, it took me a long time to just accept that the books are full of crazy stuff like dinosaurs with blades for hands. I thought Erikson was being much more figurative in his writing than he actually is.
So, when I read it the first time I just couldn't latch onto his concepts. Like Moon's Spawn. What the hell was that? I had to ask to find out it is indeed a floating rock. It is so much more obvious now, it's a great feeling really to explore the world this way. I love that he chose to do it the
hard way because the reward is so much higher.
* Character names. Lots of them are silly and is a problem I still have with the books. Not a biggie though
* Some seemingly very random moments, especially in book 1+2 that scream "This happened in the roleplaying game we played so I am gonna include it although there is no literary need". I am thinking specifically of you, bucket of healing water conveniently placed at the deadhouse's exit
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#105
Thelomen Toblerone
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Posted 21 June 2010 - 09:44 PM
The Quick Ben not being black thing I've heard mentioned a few times, but I really don't get that - it says within the first 100 pages of GotM quite clearly that Quick Ben is black, and I'm sure it's mentioned periodically throughout the other books....
#106
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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:43 AM
I guess it may be because Erikson writes against stereotype? No offense intended
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#108
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Posted 22 June 2010 - 08:24 PM
No, what I meant was that maybe it is harder to visualize Quick Ben as being black because he generally acts/sounds like an Asian guy. Or maybe it's just me dreaming this up. I don't know, lol.
Also, it is quite hard to see these people as anything other than the usual caucasian fantasy people.
But I appreciate Erikson doing it his way, and the more I read the harder I work to see things "correctly".
But what DO Tiste Edur look like?
When they are out in the forest, they do sound a lot like the classic "Sylvan Elves"
Also, it is quite hard to see these people as anything other than the usual caucasian fantasy people.
But I appreciate Erikson doing it his way, and the more I read the harder I work to see things "correctly".
But what DO Tiste Edur look like?
When they are out in the forest, they do sound a lot like the classic "Sylvan Elves"
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#109
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Posted 04 July 2010 - 04:36 AM
I guess, in most fantasy series, 99% of the time wizards are white. .
The original poster wonders if SE could have been more famous had the first book not been so confusing for so many. Interestingly, SE wonders the same in "preface to the gardens of the moon redux" an introduction he wrote to GOTM in 2007. His attitude is "yeah, probably" but "f*** it".
Kudos to SE.
The original poster wonders if SE could have been more famous had the first book not been so confusing for so many. Interestingly, SE wonders the same in "preface to the gardens of the moon redux" an introduction he wrote to GOTM in 2007. His attitude is "yeah, probably" but "f*** it".
Kudos to SE.
Split my brain into two parts: LEFT and RIGHT. Unfortunately, in my RIGHT, there's nothing left. And, in my LEFT, there's nothing right.
#110
Sinisdar Toste
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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:59 AM
Slynt in the Shadows, on 22 June 2010 - 08:24 PM, said:
No, what I meant was that maybe it is harder to visualize Quick Ben as being black because he generally acts/sounds like an Asian guy. Or maybe it's just me dreaming this up. I don't know, lol.
Also, it is quite hard to see these people as anything other than the usual caucasian fantasy people.
But I appreciate Erikson doing it his way, and the more I read the harder I work to see things "correctly".
But what DO Tiste Edur look like?
When they are out in the forest, they do sound a lot like the classic "Sylvan Elves"
Also, it is quite hard to see these people as anything other than the usual caucasian fantasy people.
But I appreciate Erikson doing it his way, and the more I read the harder I work to see things "correctly".
But what DO Tiste Edur look like?
When they are out in the forest, they do sound a lot like the classic "Sylvan Elves"
they might sound like that, but they got skin the colour of ash and no pointy ears.
here we see two renderings of edur done by forum artists. i think they're pretty accurate
first is mosag, second is trull and onrack
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#111
Shadow of Shadowthrone
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Posted 08 July 2010 - 05:12 AM
Thanks for posting those pictures. With the first one I was thinking 'wtf lol definitely not what I envisioned' but then the second one, that is just how I envision Trull Sengar! Weirder stuff has happened,but still..that was weird.
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#112
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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:10 PM
My visualization of Hannan Mosag is (for some reason) based on the King of Swamp Castle from Monty Python's Holy Grail.
And I'm not sure I can clearly visualize Trull, but the text describes him as handsome, and I've yet to see an artist's rendition that depicts him as such.
And I'm not sure I can clearly visualize Trull, but the text describes him as handsome, and I've yet to see an artist's rendition that depicts him as such.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
#113
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Posted 08 July 2010 - 07:31 PM
"To have dismantled love in order to become capable of loving. To have dismantled one's self in order finally to be alone and meet the true double at the other end of the line. A clandestine passenger on a motionless voyage."
Deleuze and Guattari, Thousand Plateaus p 197
Deleuze and Guattari, Thousand Plateaus p 197
#114
footbeat
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 07:41 PM
The main reason I am having a hard time getting into it is the lacking characterization and setting description. If I were dropped into the middle of a place I knew nothing about, I would immediately have sensory experiences of the environment and the people (if any) that were around me, that would soon be followed by impressions. I expect to have similar experiences when dropped into a fictitious world.
The standard omniscient narrator facilitates this expectation. SE is non-standard in this sense. The story is not narrated from an omniscient narrator's point of view. It is told from more from the characters' points of view. In the situations they are in, they aren't dwelling on characterization and setting in their own minds, since they are already familiar with these things. That which comes to the characters' attention is brought to our attention. As such, we don't know much about the characters or the settings immediately. The narrative is very plot driven from the beginning, and it is hard to visualize too much else.
As a consolation, SE gives us colorful names that are evocative of simple imagery so we can associate a name with an image. This is important to me to make a connection with a character. Since I don't have a very detailed physical description of a character, the image of a "tattered sail" going with Tattersail helps me make a connection between the name and an image. This way, my mind can relate to the character better. If the names were something like Szmorga'aphegrapmapfg and I had no idea of what he or she looked like, I'd think WTF every time I saw the name. But I think of an average joe (or Jack) who can probably hold his liquor whenever I see the name Whiskeyjack.
The number of characters is large, but it is manageable since we are provided with the Dramatis Personae at the beginning. In order to absorb everything and give the book a fair shake, I have to limit myself to reading 10 - 20 pages at a time. Each time I read a character's name, I flip to the DP to see who that character is. I do this until I am familiar with the character. After a few pages, I am into the plot and know who is who. But then I end up in Darujhistan and the flipping back and forth begins all over again. After the 10 - 20 pages is finished, I spend some quiet time reflecting on what I just read. This feels like studying to me, and it is not the most enjoyable way I can think of to spend my time.
I do understand that things will get better. I'm willing to make the investment. I think the average reader isn't likely to make this kind of investment.
But SE himself gives us this, "Out of your depth, Captain? Don't worry, every damn person here's out of their depth... Start with what's right in front of you and forget the rest for now. It'll show up in its own time."
I'll take that advice and continue reading on.
The standard omniscient narrator facilitates this expectation. SE is non-standard in this sense. The story is not narrated from an omniscient narrator's point of view. It is told from more from the characters' points of view. In the situations they are in, they aren't dwelling on characterization and setting in their own minds, since they are already familiar with these things. That which comes to the characters' attention is brought to our attention. As such, we don't know much about the characters or the settings immediately. The narrative is very plot driven from the beginning, and it is hard to visualize too much else.
As a consolation, SE gives us colorful names that are evocative of simple imagery so we can associate a name with an image. This is important to me to make a connection with a character. Since I don't have a very detailed physical description of a character, the image of a "tattered sail" going with Tattersail helps me make a connection between the name and an image. This way, my mind can relate to the character better. If the names were something like Szmorga'aphegrapmapfg and I had no idea of what he or she looked like, I'd think WTF every time I saw the name. But I think of an average joe (or Jack) who can probably hold his liquor whenever I see the name Whiskeyjack.
The number of characters is large, but it is manageable since we are provided with the Dramatis Personae at the beginning. In order to absorb everything and give the book a fair shake, I have to limit myself to reading 10 - 20 pages at a time. Each time I read a character's name, I flip to the DP to see who that character is. I do this until I am familiar with the character. After a few pages, I am into the plot and know who is who. But then I end up in Darujhistan and the flipping back and forth begins all over again. After the 10 - 20 pages is finished, I spend some quiet time reflecting on what I just read. This feels like studying to me, and it is not the most enjoyable way I can think of to spend my time.
I do understand that things will get better. I'm willing to make the investment. I think the average reader isn't likely to make this kind of investment.
But SE himself gives us this, "Out of your depth, Captain? Don't worry, every damn person here's out of their depth... Start with what's right in front of you and forget the rest for now. It'll show up in its own time."
I'll take that advice and continue reading on.
#115
ansible
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Posted 23 July 2010 - 04:14 AM
footbeat, on 09 July 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:
But SE himself gives us this, "Out of your depth, Captain? Don't worry, every damn person here's out of their depth... Start with what's right in front of you and forget the rest for now. It'll show up in its own time."
I'll take that advice and continue reading on.
I noticed this quote in GotM recently and thought it a brilliant aside from SE to the reader about how to interact with the books as a whole.
We sail in and out of Time, then back again. There is only one ship, the captain says. All the ships we hail between the galaxies or suns are this ship.
#116
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Posted 23 July 2010 - 11:16 AM
It grabbed me instantly... right away I could see it was going to be a lot more dark and brutally honest than many fantasy series... and also much more original. I was confused, but in a good way: i didn't understand what was going on immediately, but being thrown right into the action really made me want to figure it out!
darkness & silence
the light shall flicker out
the light shall flicker out
#117
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Posted 24 July 2010 - 05:18 PM
(Spoilers follow.)
The biggest issues Gardens of the Moon has with regard to accessibility is things that aren't explained in the book and perhaps not very well in later books either, or so I've been told (I haven't read past Deadhouse Gates).
1) Kruppe's dreams. Unexplained.
2) Tattersail's rebirth.
3) The Azath house that consumes Raest is explained sorta, kinda in Deadhouse Gates at least, but in Gardens of the Moon it definitely sounds like a cop-out on Erikson's part.
4) And then there are lots of little things, like Paran getting outside of Dragnipur's warren by inexplicably overpowering a god. It just doesn't make much sense, it's random, and it's unexplained, as far as I know.
It's just part of Erikson's style that in fact sometimes the explanations will *not* come later on. Some things really just aren't explained. They just happen. In a sense this makes the world feel real and alive, but it's also sometimes hard to fight off the feeling that Erikson is just doing whatever he likes without any coherent rules on his world.
I think this is the feeling that drives a lot of people away from the series. Deadhouse Gates at least is much better than Gardens of the Moon in this respect.
The biggest issues Gardens of the Moon has with regard to accessibility is things that aren't explained in the book and perhaps not very well in later books either, or so I've been told (I haven't read past Deadhouse Gates).
1) Kruppe's dreams. Unexplained.
2) Tattersail's rebirth.
3) The Azath house that consumes Raest is explained sorta, kinda in Deadhouse Gates at least, but in Gardens of the Moon it definitely sounds like a cop-out on Erikson's part.
4) And then there are lots of little things, like Paran getting outside of Dragnipur's warren by inexplicably overpowering a god. It just doesn't make much sense, it's random, and it's unexplained, as far as I know.
It's just part of Erikson's style that in fact sometimes the explanations will *not* come later on. Some things really just aren't explained. They just happen. In a sense this makes the world feel real and alive, but it's also sometimes hard to fight off the feeling that Erikson is just doing whatever he likes without any coherent rules on his world.
I think this is the feeling that drives a lot of people away from the series. Deadhouse Gates at least is much better than Gardens of the Moon in this respect.
This post has been edited by zpconn: 24 July 2010 - 05:27 PM
#118
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Posted 24 July 2010 - 09:37 PM
zpconn, on 24 July 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:
(Spoilers follow.)
The biggest issues Gardens of the Moon has with regard to accessibility is things that aren't explained in the book and perhaps not very well in later books either, or so I've been told (I haven't read past Deadhouse Gates).
1) Kruppe's dreams. Unexplained.
2) Tattersail's rebirth.
3) The Azath house that consumes Raest is explained sorta, kinda in Deadhouse Gates at least, but in Gardens of the Moon it definitely sounds like a cop-out on Erikson's part.
4) And then there are lots of little things, like Paran getting outside of Dragnipur's warren by inexplicably overpowering a god. It just doesn't make much sense, it's random, and it's unexplained, as far as I know.
It's just part of Erikson's style that in fact sometimes the explanations will *not* come later on. Some things really just aren't explained. They just happen. In a sense this makes the world feel real and alive, but it's also sometimes hard to fight off the feeling that Erikson is just doing whatever he likes without any coherent rules on his world.
I think this is the feeling that drives a lot of people away from the series. Deadhouse Gates at least is much better than Gardens of the Moon in this respect.
The biggest issues Gardens of the Moon has with regard to accessibility is things that aren't explained in the book and perhaps not very well in later books either, or so I've been told (I haven't read past Deadhouse Gates).
1) Kruppe's dreams. Unexplained.
2) Tattersail's rebirth.
3) The Azath house that consumes Raest is explained sorta, kinda in Deadhouse Gates at least, but in Gardens of the Moon it definitely sounds like a cop-out on Erikson's part.
4) And then there are lots of little things, like Paran getting outside of Dragnipur's warren by inexplicably overpowering a god. It just doesn't make much sense, it's random, and it's unexplained, as far as I know.
It's just part of Erikson's style that in fact sometimes the explanations will *not* come later on. Some things really just aren't explained. They just happen. In a sense this makes the world feel real and alive, but it's also sometimes hard to fight off the feeling that Erikson is just doing whatever he likes without any coherent rules on his world.
I think this is the feeling that drives a lot of people away from the series. Deadhouse Gates at least is much better than Gardens of the Moon in this respect.
1) Kruppe is a mystery. Someone else will have to take this one.
2) The concept of soul-shifting is foreshadowed by Hairlock; Tattersail even mentions it in her own thoughts right before she takes control of Nightchill's remains. Support from DG:
Spoiler
RotCG spoilers:
Spoiler
3) The Azath are mysterious and their nature is slowly revealed over the course of the entire series. I can understand how in GotM, as a self-contained novel, the appearance of the Azath seems out of place. However, in context of the entire MBotF, it is not surprising.
4) I assume you mean Paran grabbing Oponn and making him bait for the Hounds? This is actually one of the themes of the entire series, repeated directly even in GotM: gods are at the mercy of mortals. Gods are now enslaved by their mortal worshippers, rather than the other way around. So this is not that surprising either, given that Oponn is a meddling Ascendant that does not prefer direct confrontation and Paran had power over them anyway since his sword was aspected by Oponn.
This post has been edited by ansible: 24 July 2010 - 09:39 PM
We sail in and out of Time, then back again. There is only one ship, the captain says. All the ships we hail between the galaxies or suns are this ship.
#119
Furion
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Posted 24 July 2010 - 11:37 PM
I don't really understand this entire thread. My first read of GoTM just last year was in no way problematic for me, other than it just wasn't as good overall as ASoIaF. But I had no trouble understanding what was going on. I thought the prologue was perfect. Stormy skies, a cleansing/culling of deviants in a forgotten backwater city of the Empire erupts in riots, introductions to several of the most important characters, profound dialogue (why does my spellcheck not like this word...) that shows the reader some of the overarching themes of the series... And of course the book telling us about the change of administration of the Empire.
Time skip, plot to take down empress is shown, reader is brought to the aftermath of a massive magical battle... Its really not all that hard to understand compared to a few scenes I could mention from Memories of Ice or other works...
I'm currently rereading this book, and I still don't see it.
Time skip, plot to take down empress is shown, reader is brought to the aftermath of a massive magical battle... Its really not all that hard to understand compared to a few scenes I could mention from Memories of Ice or other works...
I'm currently rereading this book, and I still don't see it.
Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath,
to spit in Sightblinders eye on the last day.
May you shelter in the palm of the Creator"s hand, and may the last embrace of the Mother welcome you home.
to spit in Sightblinders eye on the last day.
May you shelter in the palm of the Creator"s hand, and may the last embrace of the Mother welcome you home.
#120
TheBlackMistress
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Posted 27 May 2011 - 08:06 PM
Furion, on 24 July 2010 - 11:37 PM, said:
I don't really understand this entire thread. My first read of GoTM just last year was in no way problematic for me, other than it just wasn't as good overall as ASoIaF. But I had no trouble understanding what was going on. I thought the prologue was perfect. Stormy skies, a cleansing/culling of deviants in a forgotten backwater city of the Empire erupts in riots, introductions to several of the most important characters, profound dialogue (why does my spellcheck not like this word...) that shows the reader some of the overarching themes of the series... And of course the book telling us about the change of administration of the Empire.
Time skip, plot to take down empress is shown, reader is brought to the aftermath of a massive magical battle... Its really not all that hard to understand compared to a few scenes I could mention from Memories of Ice or other works...
I'm currently rereading this book, and I still don't see it.
Time skip, plot to take down empress is shown, reader is brought to the aftermath of a massive magical battle... Its really not all that hard to understand compared to a few scenes I could mention from Memories of Ice or other works...
I'm currently rereading this book, and I still don't see it.
So true.
I too didn't find it difficult to get into this book. Most everything that is not explained within the first chapters gets explained later on in the book (if not, then later in the series).
For those debating whether to read this series i strongly suggest that you hang in there, it gets easier the more you read and its such a great series.
