[Dolorous Menhir]

All right, I found this, backing up what you say.

Deadhouse Gates, on page 80, said:

[Coltaine, Bult, Kulp & Duiker are having their first meeting]

"Both Crust and Urko were the Emperor's men," Duiker explained. "It seems they shared the same fate as most of Kellanved's companions, including Toc the Elder and Ameron. None of their bodies were ever found, either." The historian shrugged. "Old history now. Forbidden history, in fact."

"You assume they were murdered at Laseen's command," Bult said, baring his jagged teeth. "But imagine a circumstance where the Empress's most able commanders simply...disappeared. Leaving her isolated, desperate for able people. You forget, Historian, that before Laseen became Empress, she was close companions with Crust, Urko, Ameron, Dassem and the others. Imagine her now alone, still feeling the wounds of abandonment."

"And her murder of the other close companions - Kellanved and Dancer - was not something she imagined would affect her friendship with those commanders?" Duiker shook his head, aware of the bitterness in his voice. They were my companions too.

Still looking for the part where Duiker talks about his rise through the ranks.

[Abyss]

Could be wrong, but wasn't that ref'd by Sorno or Coltaine early in DG?

It also bothered me that Duiker's ref'd as part of 'the family', yet in the quote you're looking for, he's ref'd as a common soldier selected to be a historian.

- Abyss, viva la famiglia.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Deadhouse Gates, on page 491, said:

[bold is used where there were italics in the text]

He laid a hand on the grip of the short sword at his hip, and was alarmed at how strange it felt - it had been a long time since he'd last used a weapon. Being pulled from the front lines had been the Emperor's reward all those years ago. That and the various alchemies that keep me tottering on well past my prime. Gods, even the scars from that last horror have faded away! "No-one who's grown up amidst scrolls and books can write of the world," Kellanved had told him once, "which is why I'm appointing you Imperial Historian, soldier."

"Emperor, I cannot read or write."

"An unsullied mind. Good. Toc the Elder will be teaching you over the next six months - he's another soldier with a brain. Six months, mind. No more than that."

"Emperor, it seems to me that he would be better suited than I - "

"I've something else in store for him. Do as I say or I'll have you spiked on the city wall."

Kellanved's sense of humour had been strange even at the best of times. Duiker recalled those learning sessions: he a soldier of thirty-odd years who'd been campaigning for over half that, seated alongside Toc's own son, a runt of a boy who always seemed to be suffering from a cold - the sleeves of his shirt were crusty with dried snot. It had taken longer than six months, but by then it was Toc the Younger doing the teaching.

The Emperor loved lessons in humility. So long as it was never thrown back at him. What happened to Toc the Elder, I wonder? Vanishing after the assassinations - I'd always imagined it was Laseen's doing...and Toc the Younger - he'd rejected a life amidst scrolls and books...now lost in the Genebackan campaign - "

A gauntleted hand gripped the historian's shoulder and squeezed hard. Duiker focused on Lull's battered face, nodded. Sorry. Mind wandering still, it seems.

What I take away from that is that Duiker is not actually that old. Thirty-something at the time of this reminiscing, with Toc the Younger already a boy (not necessarily grown though). Since Toc seemed to be no more than in his thirties in GotM (I would say he was Ganoes's age, 20-something), this means Duiker is not more than 60. Which makes it difficult for him to be a founding Family member more than 100 years before GotM. (Yes, I'm taking the timeline too strictly).

I think Duiker became a close member of the inner circle at this late point in the Empire, but he was not a "Family member" like the other founders of the Empire were. He was not part of the crew on Malaz City that overthrew Mock. This would agree with the quotes placing Duiker last to join the family. He was pretty clearly a lowly soldier who came to the attention of Kellanved and came to know the other main people in the mid to latter days of Kellanved's time as Emperor.

Note also that he makes no mention of entering the Deadhouse, or being affected by entering the Deadhouse - even when he thinks about the alchemies that keep him tottering along. This is why I think he was never in the Deadhouse (Quon already being the capital of the Empire, not Malaz City, by the time he became Imperial Historian).

[Abyss]

Or perhaps he was a soldier for a LONG time, one of those sargeant types who keep their heads down and avoid promotion while knowing more than most of the officers?

So he'd be at the Deadhouse, or at least involved with the family, at the early stages. It doesn't matter if you read " he a soldier of thirty-odd years who'd been campaigning for over half that" as him being a soldier for 30ish years, and half that on campaign, as opposed to him being 30ish years old.

It's sketchylogic, i agree, but otherwise Duiker being there at the early years of the Empire, soldier for 15, and taught with Toc the Younger don't add up.

Abyss, when in doubt, denies time and space.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Another thing I should point out is the further link between Duiker & Dujek.

When Bult & Coltaine first meet Duiker, Bult tells the story of how he was wounded.

Bult seriously wounded Duiker - but did not kill him because Duiker was unarmed, he was in his role as an observing historian.

Dujek then "kissed Bult's face with his sword", and Dujek in turn lost his arm to Bult's horse.

At first I was thinking this series of events must have been early in the Empire's history, perhaps during the first subjugation of the Wickan plains (not Coltaine's later rebellion). But we see that Duiker is already Historian. So how is Dujek still a lowly soldier, directly in hand to hand battle?

Even with these questions, it does further link Dujek & Duiker, listed in Hetan's quote as the last pair to join the Family.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

At first I was thinking this series of events must have been early in the Empire's history, perhaps during the first subjugation of the Wickan plains (not Coltaine's later rebellion). But we see that Duiker is already Historian. So how is Dujek still a lowly soldier, directly in hand to hand battle?

I'd say it's almost certainly during coltaines rebellion... just because dujek got involved with the sword doesn't mean he was a lowly soldier, commanders can still participate in battle if they are capable (see dassem), and presumably if bult had reached duiker the wickans had penetrated some way into the malazan lines, where presumably dujek led a force to drive them away.

The timeline issues seem especially harsh on both dujek and duiker, both are referenced iwth respect to the family a hundred years ago... but neither are old enough to have been around then.

My pet theory is that dujek onearm is a descendant of the dujek nok references. Interestingly Duiker is not referenced as joining the family at the same time as those others, the main family members as it were, so may have been a later addition to the group...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Maknavox;141958 said:

The problem with the timelines is easy to fix. He's a son of one or two of the original family.

But surely such a relationship would've been mentioned at some point by someone?

We had Duiker think about pretty much every single Family member at various points in DG, and not once did he think "mum" or "dad" at the same time. And he knew the Family personally, not in the manner that the child of a Family member would.

I'm still not convinced by that suggestion, or the similar "Dujek Onearm a descendant of the Family's Dujek" theory. They just seem to fly in the face of the established histories and theme of the books - that important people live a long time. There's no mention of actual families of people, just "the Family" drawn together by Kellanved. The only Family member that is even known to have offspring is Toc the Elder.

Actually, a lot of these problems could be resolved by discarding the 100 year reign of Kellanved given in GotM. If that was cut down to a much more managable 50 or 60 years, then we immediately solve the problems of Dujek's age, the age of Riggalai the Seer in GotM, and other things like that. Of course it's not necessary or known to be a valid notion, but it would make a lot of these timeline problems go away (and, yes, probably create more at the same time).

[daremo]

Remember....

Hetan;140468 said:

‘Was this before they were granted entry into the Deadhouse?’ Gamet asked.
‘Aye, but only just. Our residency in the Deadhouse rewarded us with – as is now clearly evident – certain gifts. Longevity, immunity to most diseases, and . . . other things.
From HoC

Time does slow down in the houses.

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's not really relevant to the discrepancy between the given ages of Dujek & Duiker and their storied involvement with the Family.

The problem is that those two are too young to have first appeared when they did.

[Tattooed Hand]

Abyss;140471 said:

It also bothered me that Duiker's ref'd as part of 'the family', yet in the quote you're looking for, he's ref'd as a common soldier selected to be a historian.

Right, not everyone wants to be in charge...

Imperial Historian;140543 said:

but neither are old enough to have been around then.

But Crust or Urko or Lasseen don't seem very old either. I don't think we can take how aged they appear to be an indicator of age. Although I do think that war and traumatic experiences grizzles and grounds them down in spirit and that may appear on their bodies and faces.

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

But Crust or Urko or Lasseen don't seem very old either. I don't think we can take how aged they appear to be an indicator of age. Although I do think that war and traumatic experiences grizzles and grounds them down in spirit and that may appear on their bodies and faces.

They don't seem very old, but we don't have referenced ages for them, I wouldn't base any ages in the books off appearance as they are so unreliable due to various alchemies and such.

But dujek is specifically ref'd as 79 in GotM, yet he is also ref'd as being around before kelvanned conquered malaz island, which if it happened 100 years ago, just couldn't have happened.

Duiker is a less certain buisness, we don't have an exact age for him, and any ages for him are subjective, but it's a struggle to see how we get from the info we have on him, to an age of over 100 (30 years as a soldier, 30-40 years since Toc was 12 to now (which is a stretch) and then I can't see him joining up at much after 25, which gives us 95-100 at a stretch, and I can't see a 1 year old being part of the family.

[Abyss]

When in doubt, blame the Azath.

Really.

- Abyss, denies all sense of time and space.

[Folken]

Dujek was never a Bridgeburner. WJ was his commanding officer yes, but that doesn't mean he was part of the Bridgeburners.

[Hume]

In regards to Duiker.

I always figured it could make more sense if that when the Emperor chose Duiker to be a historian for his empire and that Duiker was one of the original 'family' when the empire started. My take was that Duiker was a soldeir but not necessarilly a soldier of the malaz empire of the time. Possibly some random young soldier from somewhere else.

[Xaspian]

Hang on a sec though...

Quote

Being pulled from the front lines had been the Emperor's reward all those years ago.

This would seem to imply that Kellanved was Emperor when he pulled Duiker from the ranks. But it could just be that Duiker thinks of him as 'the emperor', even when he's remembering before...

I really like the theory. I guess it is possible that Kellanved looked that far ahead, and was certain of the fact that he would become an emperor. But would he really have appointed an Imperial Historian for an empire that didn't exist yet?

Meh.

[Bl1nder]

I tend to agree with Iarwain, he apointed him Imprial Historian when he was still firmly on the throne, not before