[Falco]

Anyone else get the feeling that Laseen cut Tavore lose ie. forced her to rebel, so that she could deal independently with the Edur while Laseen dealt with Dom and Rel?

Meaning she repeated the trick from earlier in the series...

[Monoch Ochem]

Yup! Like Fist Keneb said, the 14th is hers and the Empire can rot.

Rhulad's gotta be stopped. He's the direct hand of the CG. What other army could Tavore and T'Amber have envisioned when they told Kalam they needed their plan to work in order to save the world? The 14th is bound for Lether, I think.

[Abyss]

I really REALLY like the notion that Tavore's rebellion is all part of Laseen's master plan, and an echo of Dujek/WJ's fake outlaw status.

But while i suspect that the Malazan Empire has been trying to deal with the CG covertly since before Dujek hooked up with Rake on Genabackis, i think that in this case the plan has beend erailed, either by Laseen's screw-up or via Dom and Rel/the CG's countermove.

Tavore's rebellion with the 14th may actually be an attempt to salvage the original plan that would have had Dujek and co take on the counter CG mission made impossible when the Host was broken at Coral.

That the Host is now under Ganoes and thus may be available to relieve the14th may not be something Laseen planned, nor the CG planned for.

- Abyss, evil mastermind.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I certainly agree that the original Family members are all up to something, and are likely still in communication and maybe even working together. I don't think that extends to Tavore's actions though, she's not a part of the Family, and she was very very clearly left to die by Laseen in Malaz City at the end of BH. I don't believe it's possible that the Empress could have anticipated them surviving an assault by that many Claw.

[Abyss]

Or maybe she counted on it because she knew just how good Kalam was, and that other powers (the Eres, Apsalar) were involved. Don't forget that the assault by the Claw may have had the handy (pun intended) side effect of thinning the ranks of Rel's Black Glove.

In a nutshell, what i'm suggesting is that Laseen had to be seen to be doing everything she could to remove the army from Tavore, including sacrificing the Wickans at Dom's behest, but for all her mournful looks and offers i Malaz city, she was counting on Tavore's inherent honour to refuse and get out of there with the army in tow.

Of course, i could be overestimating Laseen with this theory.

- Abyss, being recruited by Michael Jackson's Sequined Glove.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't really see that - I don't think anyone anticipated Apsalar killing over half the Claw singlehanded (Ammanas certainly didn't), and Tavore barely came through alive. T'Amber didn't, and Kalam is a question mark. If the plan banked on those two keeping her alive against the 600, it was a very bad plan.

[Falco]

I don't think so. I think there was a definite case to be made for it being in Shadowthrone and Cotillion's interests that Tavore be alive and lead the 14th against Rhulad and they would take steps to ensure this and Laseen relying on it, and its well within Laseen's capacity for foresight and cunning to allow Tavore and co. deal with the Edur, while crucially, not officially involving the Malazan Empire in the fight. After all, a rogue army and their commander doesn't officially put the Empire in the fight against Rhulad and could allow them to pick up crucial allies (like the Perish). Of course this assumes that Laseen officially ignores the destruction of Sepik, while allowing the 14th to deliver the necessary retribution.

Mostly I think this is likely because she's pulled this trick before, and it worked for her, so she's doing it again. Furthermore, allowing Dom and Rel to come to the fore in the Empire may well be a play in enticing the CG to come forward and reveal more of his plans, or to trap in some other manner.

I'm also kind of basing this on how SE loves to play with our feelings towards Laseen-after GotM we despise her, after DG we like her, now we despise her again so...

Anyway, my $0.02

[Monoch Ochem]

Know what? I'm getting to like Shadow, and that's decidedly NOT good or wise. ST may be in league with the CG. Who knows why....some pact for co-dominance, a return of the CG to his realm...you just never know. For all his measures and counter measures, ST & the CG may be pitting powerful forces against each other to eliminate them as potential rivals.

Anyway, it'll be interesting when we finally get some insight into the workings of Laseen's mind...when we finally get HER perspective. My views on her are hardly masked...don't trust or like her, to say the least. It seems that the 2 forces are destined for different places but that's not to say that Tavore and Ganoes wont cross paths.

[Dark Mac]

Monoch Ochem;143644 said:

Know what? I'm getting to like Shadow, and that's decidedly NOT good or wise. ST may be in league with the CG. Who knows why....some pact for co-dominance, a return of the CG to his realm...you just never know. For all his measures and counter measures, ST & the CG may be pitting powerful forces against each other to eliminate them as potential rivals.

Even if that's true, ST's definitely planning to stab the CG in the back afterwards. ST would never ignore a good opportunity for betrayal.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Tavore reminds you of Coltaine? That's weird.

They are pretty different - actually, was Coltaine cold or hot iron?

[Blind]

Dolorous Menhir;143860 said:

actually, was Coltaine cold or hot iron?

I think that L'oric mentions Coltaine as an example of Cold Iron in HoC - and Tavore is also Cold Iron; this fact was enough to scare Felisin badly. They both command without giving a lot of information about their motives for doing things. The fact is that we know little about what went on in Coltaine's mind - and it's true of Tavore also.

[Dolorous Menhir]

But they are quite different in the way I see them. So they didn't explain themselves to others, but Coltaine inspired confidence and loyalty, whereas a big deal has been made over Tavore's inability to earn and maintain respect - and that she doesn't know how to handle it well. That she even fears it.

That's why I think of her as different from Coltaine.

[Sir Thursday]

Dravik;143965 said:

Coltaine inspired confidence and respect because he was already a known and well respected military commander. Coltaine also had his Wiccans with him that provided a lot of the ground support for his forces. The Malazan troops were not inspired by him till their first few skirmishes in the Chain of Dogs. They hated him at the beginning the book.

Tavore on the other hand started from nothing. She also had Coltaine's legacy hanging over her. She took full command of her troops and just told them what to do. She had no outward emotion, or any type of "human" like quality to her. You can't really inspire confidence in your troops when they know nothing about you. We saw their confidence and loyalty grow throughout the last few books.

It's just different ways of looking at it I guess.

--
Dravik

Tavore did have some veterans to help her out I suppose...


Sir Thursday

[Falco]

Well, Tavore has that loyalty now....the 14th are hers and Empire's no longer. Actually I quite like the comparison with Coltaine, especially given how steeped she was in his legacy when she first took over in 7C.

[Nakor]

k st/cot are not in league with cg in any way this is a most ridiculious suggestion they are devoting masses of resources to taking him down. defending the immas/shadow thrones with his army of crucified children most of whom were killed doing so. then sending QB trull and onrack to the tellan refugium. then the rank of tavore and ganoes is another pool of water thats been muddied too much the perish have sworn to tavore and will not sway to ganoes they wouldnt go to lasseen plus they have kinda taken a back seat so far only really picking up tan yovis (twilight) and helping out in malaz city so hope fully see more of them. then theres also the problem of fesilin jr still having her cult down in the south that everyone has forgotten about so ganoes might have more trouble in seven cities. and that thing about not being able to skip rank is stupid it happens more than once in the book for a start wj is promoted by do as soon as possible, keneb is made a fist from a captain so there is precedent of it happening before plus as is mentioned by keneb i think in rg that there should be more promotions getting rid of old worn out men like blistig and promoting faradan sort and others whose names elude me. sorry for a long post but felt the need to point out some things i invite people to question them so that any alterations that need to be made can be as soon as possible.