[Onrack the breakable]

Hey, back in HOC I got the impression Grub was just a kid. Well, a real smart and tough kid that would one day grow up to be the First Sword of the Malazan Empire or even the next emperor- who knows.

But, in BH he doesn't just know a bit more than everyone else (most of the characters are pretty brain dead anyway) but now Grub is showing more foreknowledge than the elder god Krul did back in MOI. It seems similar to when Krul was revealing godly insight to Toc that one time. Makes me think that Krul is now Grub.

[GardenGnome]

I like to imagine Grub as the future, somehow. Not in any way assosiated with the gods, just like Quick Ben's dream: "Without temples and priests the gods' bloody meddling couldn't touch the mortal realm. Now, that would be paradise, right, friend?"

However, I have nothing to back this on. I just have a feeling (hope?) the future of Wu is highly secular.

[Aptorian]

I don't remember were it's hinted at, but Grub is destined to one day become the (last?) First Sword of the Empire.

[Grimlock]

It's in the quote somewhere in the beginning of a chapter. Can't remember where, but I remember that much, at least...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Was it a chapter heading in HoC? Must've been, it wasn't MT and it came before BH.

If I remember right, it was "First Sword during the Late Empire period". So that's not quite the same as "last First Sword", but certainly near the end of the Malazan Empire.

The origins of Grub are a bit suspect - there's a child in DG, that Duiker passes to Keneb as he enters Aren, that could be Grub, but the evidence seems to be against it. For one thing, that child was a babe-in-arms, and although Grub is young, he's certainly older than that baby could be by the time of HoC & BH (excepting the possibility that Grub is a Rud Ellale-like Soletaken who grows extremely fast - I discount this possibility because I think it would have occasioned some comment from someone if Grub grew that much). Also, Duiker called the infant "lass" which as far as I'm concerned meant it was a baby girl.

Grub just appears without explanation in HoC as a ward of Keneb, and the baby in DG is the only possible prior appearance, however likely I think it is. I had a discussion with Hetan in a thread about this once, but I can't remember where that was, it was months ago.

[The Rope]

perhaps he is like T'amber - 'possessesd' by an elder god - possibly even K'rul, or another one not really in the thick of things thus far (except in grub ).
I alos like the idea of Grub = K'rul... or even Killy? (ehh... doubtful...)

[GardenGnome]

Dolorous Menhir: Duiker leaves that child to captain Keneb, who is supposed to find the grandfather for it. Keneb then returns to Duikre to tell him he found said grandfather, just as Duiker calls Rel "jhistal", and Keneb thinks "now, where did I hear that before?" So it's not that child.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Thanks Gardengnome - then there is definitely no mention of Grub in DG, he just appears out of nowhere in HoC, already adopted by Keneb.

[blewin]

well, I can't imagine a child having this knowledge, so he HAS to have an ancient spirit or whatever spirit or God inside him. um, and it's a spirit or God that is on the Malazan side, isn't it?! wonder who that would be.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Is it possible that Grub is another Eres-follower? It's not as if that cavewoman has trouble getting around, and she seems to know everything.

[Urko Crust]

There is mention of Grub in DG. it is a baby girl given to keneb by duiker just outside the gates of Aren. keneb says in HoC that grub was given into his care by duiker, so unless there were two children grub changed sex and got alot older between DG and HoC. there is a thread about this somewhere i remember reading it

Edit: Found it, there are actually about 4http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...&highlight=grub

[Dolorous Menhir]

Look a few replies up Urko, Gardengnome already showed that the infant Duiker gave Keneb was not Grub - that child was stated to have been returned to its grandparent in DG. Combine that with it being

a) too young
a girl

and I think it's pretty clear it's not Grub. Grub just isn't mentioned in DG. He just appears in HoC.

[Urko Crust]

Oh yeah. thanks. sorry

[Onrack the breakable]

Well, the other "Who is Grub" threads are all focusing on where in the world Grub came from, not what elder god or spirit he may be a manifestation of.

I had thought all along that Keneb adopted Grub soon after arriving in Aren. But the child I thought was Grub was a girl child and he found the grandfather. Still, at the same time Duiker handed the girl to Keneb, there were probably dozens of other orphans and perhaps Grub was one of those that no relatives could be found for and that "adopted" Keneb rather than Keneb adopting Grub.

It could be another big GOTMism with inadvertant sexchange and aging like a draconian breed. The child that Duiker picks up and carries into Aren was wandering dazed so I got the impression of it being 4-6 yrs old. But the child of that guy in MT who has a son beget from that female dragon, the child growing up with the stranded Bentract T'lan Imass. That dragon kin child was 6 weeks old but the guy thought he was 6 years old.

There is something else to consider. At the time Duiker handed the 18 month old child (not referred to by either sex) to Keneb, Keneb may have still been addled (plus children that young aren't that easy to tell apart unless they're naked). So Keneb calling the child a "lass" in the heat of the moment (even if he wasn't addled) is not something to base a childs sex determination on.

Anyway, even if Grub is just another big GOTMism (or should that be DGism?) I still think he is actually K'rul.

[Kurt Montandon]

Onrack the breakable;137120 said:

Anyway, even if Grub is just another big GOTMism (or should that be DGism?) I still think he is actually K'rul.

Why would K'rul bother becoming the future First Sword of the Empire? Seems a bit irrelevantly hands-on for an Elder God.

I think Grub is ... actually, I have no idea. Just a random non-mage Adept, like Fiddler or Kruppe[1], but with more focused talent.




[1] Yes, I know Kruppe is a mage, but I'm speaking of his affinity for the Deck and emerging patterns, which would seem independent of his ability with warrens.

[blewin]

kmmontandon;137137 said:

Why would K'rul bother becoming the future First Sword of the Empire? Seems a bit irrelevantly hands-on for an Elder God.

I think Grub is ... actually, I have no idea. Just a random non-mage Adept, like Fiddler or Kruppe[1], but with more focused talent.




[1] Yes, I know Kruppe is a mage, but I'm speaking of his affinity for the Deck and emerging patterns, which would seem independent of his ability with warrens.

but seemingly all-knowing? um... *not convinced*

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack the breakable;137120 said:

It could be another big GOTMism with inadvertant sexchange and aging like a draconian breed. The child that Duiker picks up and carries into Aren was wandering dazed so I got the impression of it being 4-6 yrs old.

Deadhouse Gates, on p 833, said:

He [Duiker] saw a child, no more than eighteen months old, wandering lost, arms outstretched, dry-eyed and appallingly silent.

Quote

But the child of that guy in MT who has a son beget from that female dragon, the child growing up with the stranded Bentract T'lan Imass. That dragon kin child was 6 weeks old but the guy thought he was 6 years old.

I think if Grub was growing that fast someone would have noticed. Everyone knows he's an unusual child (to put it mildly) but nobody has mentioned him growing extraordinarily fast. I don't think he's an Eleint.

Quote

There is something else to consider. At the time Duiker handed the 18 month old child (not referred to by either sex) to Keneb, Keneb may have still been addled (plus children that young aren't that easy to tell apart unless they're naked). So Keneb calling the child a "lass" in the heat of the moment (even if he wasn't addled) is not something to base a childs sex determination on.

I suppose. But I still don't think it was Grub. I'd forgotten how badly wounded Keneb was in DG though - he seemed brain-damaged. No mention of that injury in BH that I can remember.

Quote

Anyway, even if Grub is just another big GOTMism (or should that be DGism?) I still think he is actually K'rul.

A follower or acolyte maybe, but actually K'rul? That's a tough sell. Especially since we know Grub has a long future history with the Empire, something I do not imagine K'rul would be interested in pursuing.

[Bl1nder]

Meaby Grub is the child of that Cavewoman, after all she does try explain to Botle that shes pregnant, and he says "yes yes, you are with a child, I can tell that much". As said in BH the child will be the only pure candidate for the Throne.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Most people think that is Kettle. There was a quote that backed up that, I think it either said that Kettle's father was Tiste Edur (ie Trull) or that the one who would fix Shadow was a child of the Eres & an Edur (still Trull).

Can anyone provide the quote? I'm guessing it was in BH, but that's the best I can do.