[Dolorous Menhir]

Jen said:

We already know that the fight between the Imass and Race X on Assail is really Imass vs Human. This information was given to us in Memories of Ice itself...so why are we debating it?

Because all MoI confirmed was that the Imass were fighting an army led by a human. It's been speculated that the army itself is not human (it is hard to imagine a human army defeating T'lan Imass so easily, unless they are all Seguleh Thirds or Ascendants).

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Personally I wasn't questioning the likelihood of it being a human army, I was just making the point that the humans of the continent may have had to go through tougher times as a matter of course due to their environment, so may be naturally or have learnt to be better fighters or mages.

[GardenGnome]

Personally, I put my money on advanced technology.

[tiam]

Jen said:

We already know that the fight between the Imass and Race X on Assail is really Imass vs Human. This information was given to us in Memories of Ice itself...so why are we debating it?

We know there led by a human. That does not prove it Imass against human at all. Seriosly only a massive human army of superb soldiers with unbreakable morale could stand against the Imass. Its not a case of why are we debating it its because for you to say that becuase there led by a human they must all be human is wrong and you know it

[Illuyankas]

The magic swords that prevent Imass from turning to dust probably help, to be honest. I can see vast armies of humans armed with these swords beating the numbers of Imass that we know were there. They may have taken massive casualties, but every destroyed Imass is irreplaceable.

EDIT: I know that female Imass does turn to dust in the end of MOI, but was she described as still having the swords stuck in her torso, or had someone pulled them out by that point?

[Grimlock]

Tyrants, not tyrant. Don't forget that

I like the concept of advanced technology!

*Imagines a few giant robots trampling the Imass*

Oh yes indeed...

[Dark Mac]

Illuyankas;136778 said:

The magic swords that prevent Imass from turning to dust probably help, to be honest. I can see vast armies of humans armed with these swords beating the numbers of Imass that we know were there. They may have taken massive casualties, but every destroyed Imass is irreplaceable.

EDIT: I know that female Imass does turn to dust in the end of MOI, but was she described as still having the swords stuck in her torso, or had someone pulled them out by that point?

As I recall, she travelled by dust to get to Envy's location in the first place, the swords just came with her. Even if they do seem rather permanent, they don't seem to incapacitate her at all, even with three of them in her, and if even those swords can't defeat the Imass, how are they losing?

[Illuyankas]

She was riding the iceburgs precisely because she couldn't turn to dust - Tool didn't wait for Envy and went on ahead in dust form. And she transforms alongside Tool in the dreamworld/warren thing, so that may have varied something too.

The T'lan Imass are traditional zombie-type figures, lose the head and they're defeated. There's a difference between being impaled through your non-functioning torso and being decapitated, or even dismembered.

[SiriusL]

The first thing I thought when I realized that the CG wanted Rhulad as Emporer was: "Assail!" (Well, OK, I didn't really yell it like that in my head, but still.)

If the CG can make a tyrant out of Rhulad, surely he can do something similar with a human on a far off continent. All it takes is a cool sword and some handy helpful mages.

[Talon]

ICE..huh....who?? (did I blink for too long again??!!!)

[Thelomen Toblerone]

ICE is Ian Cameron Esslemont, author of Night of Knives (NoK) and co-creator of the Malazan world. He and Erikson (SE) worked together ont he concept and both are writing books that accompany eachother based on Wu, with some characters appearing in both authors' works.

[Talon]

Thanks TT, must keep an eye out for his books

[mmdw45]

I don't know if the T'lan Imass are all that tough, anyway. Against the K'ell Hunters in MoI, they lose (Itkovian's estimate) 60 Imass taking down 5 Hunters, which isn't all that much better than the Gray Swords (who lose 20 taking down 1). Admittedly, this is without Bonecaster intervention, but my main impression of T'lan Imass battle tactics is that they throw bodies at an enemy, chopping away until they win. Classic zombie tactics, but losing thousands of soldiers vs. a single Jaghut seems not unheard-of, so after some consideration I can imagine a human empire giving them serious problems through force of sheer numbers--the major problem being that the Imass can counter non-Elder magic, according to GoTM--or alchemical munitions.

Bearing in mind, of course, that there are atypical T'lan Imass who seem quite a bit tougher than the Imass fodder. Tool dominating the K'ell Hunters comes to mind first, but there's also Ibra Gholan & co. killing the Liosan god.

~Max

[Battalion]

being able to turn to dust when you're getting duffed up is pretty handy, too. Just come back later with your mates.

[rlfcl]

against giant undead tanks they have some trouble, but so far it's been a very different story when the TI go up against mortals. so there's still something we haven't seen that's giving these human tyrants power enough to beat armies of TI. Unless Assail is like...the size ofall the rest of the continents combined (and then some) simple force of numbers on the mortal side wouldn't do it.