[Dolorous Menhir]

The Ceda was quite happy to nuke those Edur villages early on in the war (the ones that turned out to be empty). And he had no qualms about taking on the Warlock King. I'm not sure how you can claim he's useless in the real world.

[The Rope]

useless as in an absent minded professor... the day to day things.
Also, the entire population of the Edur on Lether accompanied the armies, so any attack on just the military was an attack on the people as a whole - whether he knew that or not. And i think the whole point of the pre-emptive strike was save the trouble and bloodshed an all-out war would bring to both sides - not genocide.

[Dragnipurake]

the ceda did what was required of him. he agrees to destroying the edur village but is saddened by the decision. even if this instance was in self defence, his magic was instrumental in winning the wars with other tribes and kingdoms lether was involved in. this was mentioned several times. none could withstand the ceda's magic, the edur now will not either etc etc. the wars with these others was definitely not in self defence. so yes, he was a nice old man, but was ruthless when needed, for self defence or for greed.

[frank]

Almost every tyrant, mass murderer, racist and so on did what they thought was nessesary. It's not a very good argument you know. Actually it's probably on line with "just following orders", "they had it coming" and so on. Having nice sides and seaming like a nice old man doesn't make him one. I bet even Adolf was nice to the people he liked.
So the Cedas reasons for backing the Letherii invasions on it's neighbour states are not important. That he did support them with his actions however is.
But I also want to make it absolutely clear that I still like the guy and does in no possible way compare him to to massmurderers or other beforementioned persons (eventhough maybe I should judge him a bit harder?).
My point being COULD YOU STOP WITH THE NICE OLD MAN STUFF ALREADY?

[Tiger_sword]

He reminds me of Tays as well. I really hope he gets involved in this as he could potentially change things. Surely with so many powerful beings ascending on the Edur they will be unable to keep them at bay. Also as soon as the warlock king is defeated the Edur loose a large chunk of mage potential. Of course it could all change if Scabbers returns. Bring on RG!!!!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Ha, can you imagine Tays as the Ceda. The Edur would already be in the Throne Room executing the King and Tays would hang back saying "it's not the right time to intervene, got to take the long view, got to take the long view..."

[Abyss]

Sure, but Tays is alive, the Ceda is kebab. Something to be said for the long view there.

- Abyss, cautious investor.

[The Rope]

ceda never turned on his allies... tays did.

[Aptorian]

The Rope;127070 said:

ceda never turned on his allies... tays did.

Or did he?

We still don't understand everything going on at Pale. Tays is definently not the nicest guy, but he's the Empire's man.

According to Tay, the mess at Pale started because he didn't want Nightchill to get a wholed of Rake's sword. It was Nightchill that killed A'karonys and he first sicked his demon on her after she attacked the little fat mage.

The most irritating thing about Pale is Tay's apparent underestimation of Rake. He's supposed to be 400+ years old, highpriest of D'rek in old times and genrally The Malzan equivelant of the Ceda... and he still didn't know what Rake was capable of. Probably just another GotMism.

No matter what that underestimation cost Calot and hairlock their lives along with a couple of thousand soldiers.

[frank]

How do we know that Tay underestimated Rake. Things went pretty much like he wanted them to. A few eggs...

[Aptorian]

The man barely survived the encounter, if Rake really had wanted to kill everyone he would have leveled the entire area. As Rake said he only wanted to make it too costly to keep fighting.

Tay himself had told Dujek, that except loosing Tattersail, Pale was a big mistake. He was trying to protect the Bridgeburners, even though he wanted WJ dead, that's why he let them stay under ground.

There's no way that Tay was planning on the last powerful mage cadre the Empire had should be torn to pieces in one day.

[frank]

He said that he counted on moons spawn backing out of the fight, wich it did, only later than he thought. And the mage cadre pretty much wacked each other. I'm not even sure they knew it was Rake inside Monns Spawn, but thats not important. What is important is that Tay probably just misscalculated Rakes willingness to involve himself.

[GardenGnome]

They all view Rake as a mythical person, which is in striking contrast with all the later books. It is also a bit odd, as Rake has opposed the Empire for the last 10 years or so.

[frank]

But did they know it was Rake? They only knew that the lord of Moons Spawn opposed them.

[Aptorian]

You've got a point about the "Lord of Moons Spawn" part. They didn't actually it was Rake in there. As I remember it, it's hinted that it is Rake in there when they recite the poem about Caladan Brood, and they notice that it is a mysterious person named Anomander Rake it mentions...

Interesting, but all in all, Tays ignorance in GotM I have to believe is a GotM'ism, otherwise he's pretty full of himself ... which might not be far from the truth

[frank]

I still has to dissagre. Even a King Kong with rabies isn't very dangerous if he just turns tail everytime a carebear appears.

[GardenGnome]

Hairlock was very specific about the Son of Darkness being in Moon's Spawn. Read page 67, from the briefing before the attack.

[fan_83]

yup and all of the mages at the briefing except for tays know that its a suicide mission

that tells you what they think about 3 high mage and a cadre of mages vs one single rake...

[SilchasRuin]

i think had nightchill not betrayed and had to be taken out but took out a karonys and in doing so took bellurdan out of things as well plus decimating the cadre thennnnnnnn i think perhaps they could have won......look how damaged moonspawn was when flying away