[D Man]

Tsaritsa;271019 said:

Gothos

obviously you need to brush up on what evolution is yourself

~yawn~

Gothos' retorts are pretty acurate from a scientific standpoint. I could nit-pick but hes got the idea down very well.

I for one eagerly await a serious decontruction of his points from you.

I'd also love to see what your understanding of evolution is.

How about a couple of paragraphs with you trying to, without argument, bias or loading any statements, say what youre understanding of evolution is?

Edit: gothos, rodeos just doing his job. I dont know what was deleted, but I'd certainly prefer that we keep on topic. Theres always the in for saying whatever the hell you want. This thread has a very clear purpose and I'd like it to be civil and on topic.

[Tsaritsa]

Ok fine. I do not appreciate being called a troll for merely stating my view point, however that being said I do relish the title, I may even change my nickname 

I know exactly why Gothos has a problem with me, he is assuming I am Russian…racism dear is not a virtue, but I will let it pass

my view of evolution is this: it is CHANGE

Mutations that occur within species, in order for them to adapt to their habitat or climatic changes. This of course is a very slow process that occurs over many thousands if not millions of years AND never actually stops…it is an on going process and is not limited to physical changes.

Evolution can be applied to most areas of life, from the way we have sex, to the way we talk “evolution” simply means (to me) a process in which we get better or adapt to our surroundings

Biological evolution cannot be doubted…however it cannot be given as a model for how we came to be on earth. One cannot adapt from an ape to a human..all the arguments aside, the fundamental changes that are required for an ape to become a human is mind boggling and would take millions of years

Of course this also brings into question how old earth actually is..and how long we have been on earth..well that’s another can of worms

Also , most scientists cannot even agree on what evolution is themselves

Science is infallible yes, however we as a species (at present) lack the understanding of our environment, we cannot sufficiently gather enough proof to even prove how we got here in the first place

Up until the 18th century the periodic table was not even invented or put together rather, I could be wrong..but I am sure it was around that time

Science in itself needs an open mind, the people who are in this forum cannot even discuss a scientific topic without insulting, or intimidating each other…your view points and opinions are all valid and might be very important to you, but to treat someone else’ post with disrespect …what is all that about? What is the purpose of that?

I am not a scientist and as far as I know none of you are either…merely reading someone elses view points and coming on a forum to force it down peoples throats is not civilized behaviour, clearly –evolution- as bypassed a few people

I am not a creationist or an evolutionist; either I merely an observer of life as best I can


Incidentially my belief is that creation did occur, we were created by something whatever you want to call it, the initial life forms were created …then we evolved to our current state over thousands of years

That’s the last post I will make on this topic

[Optimus Prime]

Quote

Biological evolution cannot be doubted…however it cannot be given as a model for how we came to be on earth. One cannot adapt from an ape to a human..all the arguments aside, the fundamental changes that are required for an ape to become a human is mind boggling and would take millions of years.

Total disagreement here, and I think you need to re-read whatever scientific book you've perused. It's pretty simple how we evolved....and actually one of the main reasons humans are the dominant species right now is opposable thumbs. Funny, eh?

How can you look at all the different types of apes, monkeys, etc and not see similarities with us? I mean, just look at them.

[Cold Iron]

Aw and everyone was having so much fun.

Science is not infalible proof.

And yes, it did take millions of years to evolve from our common ancestor with apes. More than 5 million or so.

[Optimus Prime]

I love how some people think two apes had sex and out came a human. Read a book every once and a while!

Of course science isn't infallible....what is?

[Gothos]

if you want to explain it with racism go right ahead, if you can't see I highly despise the bullshit you spew, and not the place you write from, it's your problem.
of course the process of turning an ape into modern humans would take millions of years... and it actually did... the change may seem mind-boggling, but what's even more mind-boggling is the amount of time evolution had to do all of this. incomprehensible for human standards, just like the size of the Universe... any kind of "that's impossible" theories seem rather idiotic in such a vast enviroment
how old Earth is, how long we're here, I think those questions have been answered with a solid load of confidence and accuracy, we even know how the Earth was formed and how life came to existance.
we can't prove how we got here? that's also a fairly obvious and answered question... unless you want to say we're aliens from outer space like the scientologists want to believe?
I don't see how posing childish questions like these while information is widely available can be considered open minded. you come in here and say "I reject the existance of your evidence, this is my standpoint, and no amount of rational and valid points will make me even listen to you YADDA YADDA YADDA" is that an open mind? simple trolling. furthermore, respect is earned, not given, and you seem to have forgotten or never known that truth.

further,

Quote

I am not a creationist or an evolutionist; either I merely an observer of life as best I can


Incidentially my belief is that creation did occur, we were created by something whatever you want to call it, the initial life forms were created …then we evolved to our current state over thousands of years

nothing quite as exciting as contradicting yourself eh?

now, that post of yours was nothing else than showing everyone in the room the finger and running out the door to find mommy.

[Lisheo]

Ok, lets not get aggressive here... I am an evolutionist, myself, for the simple reason I have yet to see any logical theorising in favour of creationism, and there seems to be plenty in favour of evolution.
If you never heard of religion, would you believe in the idea of creationism? Yes, I know, childish question, but the point is that creationism has been derived from the bible and other religions written in a time where scientific knowledge was lacking to say the least, whereas evolution is a theory that is far more modern, and far more logical.
We did evolve from apes after all. Cant really ignore that fact. We have similar DNA and we can trace our evolutionary stages using fossilised remains etc. Sort of argues in favour of evolution.

[Lisheo]

As for how we came to earth, stick enough elements and compounds, esp hydrogen and carbon somewhere, apply the right conditions, and you will eventually get complex organic compounds that will possibly become life, even if it is a one in a million shot. The fact that we are not able to reproduce such conditions right now doesnt alter that.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Humans didn't evolve from apes. Anyone who says that is making a naked display of their ignorance of evolution, presumably without realising it.

Tsaritsa, you've made it abundantly clear that you lack a clear or deep understanding of these issues. The "Stop attacking my viewpoint!" defence holds no water.

Why? Because your viewpoint is not a viewpoint. It's just a wrong, poorly informed grasp of this topic. You can't just fall back on "Well that's my opinion, so there" when discussing things like this.

[D Man]

To back up and clarify what DM is saying here:

Science isnt a democracy

"Its my opinion" is meaningless.

Evidence is required.

[Cold Iron]

Lisheo;271427 said:

As for how we came to earth, stick enough elements and compounds, esp hydrogen and carbon somewhere, apply the right conditions, and you will eventually get complex organic compounds that will possibly become life, even if it is a one in a million shot. The fact that we are not able to reproduce such conditions right now doesnt alter that.

Actually it does. It means the confidence with which you just said that is unfounded. "Given the right conditions" is a fairly inane statement when those conditions are unknown. Also, the way you personified the universe "stick enough... apply the right... you will eventually get... one in a million shot" is exactly what gives the creationists ammunition. If you believe no-one is sticking things, or applying conditions, or waiting for or betting on the appearance of life, it does not help your cause to use such language.

Also may I add that fossil records are a seriously inaccurate way to trace lineage as it leads you to infer linear relationships where none may exist. For example, we are not descendant from Neanderthal, or any non-African Erectus. We know this because the genetic (mitochondrial DNA) record (according to Stephen Oppenheimer) shows that all currently alive non-African humans are descendant from a small group of fully modern individuals who left Africa (via the southern route - ie yemen, not sinai) approx 85,000 years ago. Thus the various species of homonid who had previously left Africa, leaving lovely us-like fossils all over Europe and Asia are not our progenitors. Our common ancestry, while undeniable, may have split as far back as millions of years ago.

This means that the handful of skeletons we use to say "this evolved into this, and then this and then us" is severely lacking in empirical evidence and is put together simply out of convenience.

[D Man]

Cold Iron;271579 said:

Actually it does. It means the confidence with which you just said that is unfounded. "Given the right conditions" is a fairly inane statement when those conditions are unknown. Also, the way you personified the universe "stick enough... apply the right... you will eventually get... one in a million shot" is exactly what gives the creationists ammunition. If you believe no-one is sticking things, or applying conditions, or waiting for or betting on the appearance of life, it does not help your cause to use such language.

Also may I add that fossil records are a seriously inaccurate way to trace lineage as it leads you to infer linear relationships where none may exist. For example, we are not descendant from Neanderthal, or any non-African Erectus. We know this because the genetic (mitochondrial DNA) record (according to Stephen Oppenheimer) shows that all currently alive non-African humans are descendant from a small group of fully modern individuals who left Africa (via the southern route - ie yemen, not sinai) approx 85,000 years ago. Thus the various species of homonid who had previously left Africa, leaving lovely us-like fossils all over Europe and Asia are not our progenitors. Our common ancestry, while undeniable, may have split as far back as millions of years ago.

This means that the handful of skeletons we use to say "this evolved into this, and then this and then us" is severely lacking in empirical evidence and is put together simply out of convenience.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=I2C-3PjNGok

One example of many, and simplified for a lay audience.

[JoJo]

Clinging to a literal interpretation of Genesis is both bad science and bad religion. Augustine of Hippo, writing in 408 AD, explained:

Quote

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men...Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by these who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.
-The Literal Interpretation of Genesis (John Hobson's translation)

[Cold Iron]

[Sindriss]

I do not understand Intelligent Design. How do you really consiously ignore so much empiral knowledge and evidence and believe that God created everything 6000 years ago because it is written in a book. Yes, the bible is just a book.

Maybe it is because I am danish and most of us are atheist or close to. But like 0.01 at max would believe in ID, yet many americans seem to think it is true?

[Cold Iron]

I don't think there's any IDers here Sindriss.

[Sindriss]

Somebody have to be !

[Darkwatch]

There were, not anymore though, too fanatical, they got banned.

[Cold Iron]

Yeah, what was that pastor lady called again?

[Darkwatch]

Doughboy