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Creation Vs Evolution

#1061 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 03:28 AM

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

Well, it was the protestant reformation that led to the translations of the Bible,

Are you sure?

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

so there's a slight bit of a contradiction in your take on things here (accidental, I'm sure - you only implied the contradiction by suggesting that the Reformation freed us from Biblical literalism - quite the opposite).

Where did I do that?
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#1062 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 07:04 AM

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

Well, it was the protestant reformation that led to the translations of the Bible,

Are you sure?

Yup, pretty much. Also, the printing press didn't come around until right around the beginning of the Reformation, so it's not like the few previous vernacular translations were available to folks. Before the Protestants, the vast majority of church-going folk in Europe only heard the Bible in Latin, which is the point. But we all know that, right?

CI said:

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

so there's a slight bit of a contradiction in your take on things here (accidental, I'm sure - you only implied the contradiction by suggesting that the Reformation freed us from Biblical literalism - quite the opposite).

Where did I do that?

You know where.

The President (2012) said:

Please proceed, Governor.

Chris Christie (2016) said:

There it is.

Elizabeth Warren (2020) said:

And no, I’m not talking about Donald Trump. I’m talking about Mayor Bloomberg.
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#1063 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 07:37 AM

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

Well, it was the protestant reformation that led to the translations of the Bible,

Are you sure?

Yup, pretty much. Also, the printing press didn't come around until right around the beginning of the Reformation, so it's not like the few previous vernacular translations were available to folks. Before the Protestants, the vast majority of church-going folk in Europe only heard the Bible in Latin, which is the point. But we all know that, right?

Literacy levels were very low all the way through to well after the renaissance. The reformation was not born on the backs of people reading bibles in their own language, but listening to sermons in it.

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

CI said:

View PostTerez, on Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM, said:

so there's a slight bit of a contradiction in your take on things here (accidental, I'm sure - you only implied the contradiction by suggesting that the Reformation freed us from Biblical literalism - quite the opposite).

Where did I do that?

You know where.

I really don't. Please tell me because I assure you I did not mean to.
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#1064 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:09 PM

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

And what I'm saying is that a lot of small changes add up to a big change. Cumulatively. Dead simple, is it not? If you're fine about the mechanism of small changes (which you state you are) then the accumulation of millions of them (or possibly bilions or trillions depending on generation length) over geological time eventually becoming equivalent to a much larger change in the original individuals' eventual descendants should be no stretch whatsover. Your dispute over causality would seem to be that this hasn't been observed in the field. There is a quite obvious answer to that...
I certainly understand the concept. And the small changes can to some extent be observed in the field. However that the presumed big changes is a direct result of the small changes is not an observable fact, it's an opinion.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Now I would disagree with your statement about faith and argue that you personally cannot know how you would feel and/or think if you didn't have your faith, because your faith is such a pivotal part of your being. From your own previous statements I would also argue that all of your thinking on this and I would expect other subjects is coloured by your faith, because your faith is such a large part of your life. How could it not be? This, very obviously, is your prerogative. What I do think is rather disingenuous of you is to make the assumption that I (I can't speak for others) am so utterly inexperienced in having to interact with people who have similar experiences of their faith, and I do know quite a few, as to not understand that I have to take that into account when discussing anything with you.
No, no no, you use my supposed motives to disregard anything I say based on that I "have faith". I have not seen any actual argument, nor an understanding of what I am trying to get across.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

As for motivations; if the arguments were sound I wouldn't have to take them into account, but they're not, which leads me to question why someone would use those particular arguments.
"The arguments aren't sound" isn't an argument, it's an opinion.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Now, if you're going to continually use the same arguments and rationalisations that most people who share your avowed religious beliefs about this particular subject do, which you do, then it should come as no surprise that, from the evidence you abundantly supply, you get lumped in with them. You might say that your individual thinking is different to theirs; well, most people like to believe that their thinking is different to that of others, but the depressing truth is that the only people who are correct in this belief are either geniuses or insane. I think I can safely assume you're neither.
No no, you assume a lot of stuff about me, and without asking for clarification, you lump me together with a fictional group of people. Thanks for admitting it.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Now, some of the brighter people I've met have been commited believers, I was partially educated by Jesuits ffs!, so it's probably safe to assume that I don't regard all those with religious belief as idiots. Just mistaken, that's all.
Mistaken eh? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Your problem is that you view your opinion as an observable fact, when it's just an opinion. Those jesuits must have messed up your head immensely. (No I am not being serious - jesuits are probably great, I have never met one)

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

Anyway, we're getting away from the subject. For the sake of argument, let's say that both you and I are wrong; evolution by natural selection didn't get living things into their present state over geological time and a deity didn't create them ex nihilo (or guide their evolution, if you would prefer) As you seem to be willing to accept geological time as a given (if not we'll have to discuss that), what would you suggest as a viable alternative that fits the evidence?
Well, at a first glance on that question - which is a very interesting one, I might add - I would say that the hopes of us understanding our own origin fully is a naive dream. I am not saying we shouldn't pursue it, but right now we seem to be stuck on the quite childish level of stubbornly saying we understand something that we cannot possible understand. We need to recognize the difficulty here. Secondly, I would explore the possibility that there are things we are missing, information we don't have that would solve the question. Can we be sure we're the only humans in the universe? If there was a previous civilization on Earth, would we actually be able to see the remnants of it anywhere?
To understand our origin is much more than just understanding life's development. To try to see an answer, to fit the puzzle together, when there are key pieces missing, is not only childish, it's futile. Maybe humanity could in, say, a 1000 years, find some answers. But it's hard to tell, since we don't know what keys we are missing, if any, or if the puzzle image is supposed to be something else.
But yes, interesting question. Let me think about it. :)

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 27 August 2009 - 12:11 PM

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 02:24 PM

View Postcaladanbrood, on Aug 25 2009, 05:47 PM, said:

View Postjitsukerr, on Aug 25 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Perhaps the fundamental difference between the religious mind and the scientific one is that, where the former encounters a gap in knowledge, they need to fill it with something, and that something often ends up being God. When the latter encounters the same gap, they want to remove the gap. Which is not the same thing as filling it.

The problem here is the main reason why these sorts of aruments never work. You are assuming a distinction between religious people and scientific people. As assumptions go, this one is, quite frankly, invalid. I have my own, rather twisted faith, and I did an Engineering Degree. Clearly I have the capacity for both... hence the distinction is meaningless.


You (and everyone else who responded to this particular part of my post) are making the false assumption that the two faculties are necessarily mutually exclusive: That one cannot possess both the religious faculty and the scientific faculty. I think the human mind is sufficiently complex to permit both faculties to coexist, and one might take precedence in a given set of circumstances. It then falls to us to determine what those circumstances are.
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#1066 User is offline   Agraba 

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 03:45 PM

View PostEpiph, on Aug 24 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

Robert Wright wrote an op-ed for the NY Times about an intellectual compromise between believers and atheists on the religion versus science front. Naturally, PZ Meyers has something to say about it.

Quote

A Grand Bargain Over Evolution
By ROBERT WRIGHT
Published: August 22, 2009

THE “war” between science and religion is notable for the amount of civil disobedience on both sides. Most scientists and most religious believers refuse to be drafted into the fight. Whether out of a live-and-let-live philosophy, or a belief that religion and science are actually compatible, or a heartfelt indifference to the question, they’re choosing to sit this one out.
Skip to next paragraph
Related
Times Topics: Evolution

Still, the war continues, and it’s not just a sideshow. There are intensely motivated and vocal people on both sides making serious and conflicting claims.

There are atheists who go beyond declaring personal disbelief in God and insist that any form of god-talk, any notion of higher purpose, is incompatible with a scientific worldview. And there are religious believers who insist that evolution can’t fully account for the creation of human beings.

I bring good news! These two warring groups have more in common than they realize. And, no, it isn’t just that they’re both wrong. It’s that they’re wrong for the same reason. Oddly, an underestimation of natural selection’s creative power clouds the vision not just of the intensely religious but also of the militantly atheistic.

If both groups were to truly accept that power, the landscape might look different. Believers could scale back their conception of God’s role in creation, and atheists could accept that some notions of “higher purpose” are compatible with scientific materialism. And the two might learn to get along.

The believers who need to hear this sermon aren’t just adherents of “intelligent design,” who deny that natural selection can explain biological complexity in general. There are also believers with smaller reservations about the Darwinian story. They accept that God used evolution to do his creative work (“theistic evolution”), but think that, even so, he had to step in and provide special ingredients at some point.

Perhaps the most commonly cited ingredient is the human moral sense — the sense that there is such a thing as right and wrong, along with some intuitions about which is which. Even some believers who claim to be Darwinians say that the moral sense will forever defy the explanatory power of natural selection and so leave a special place for God in human creation.

This idea goes back to C. S. Lewis, the mid-20th-century Christian writer (and author of “The Chronicles of Narnia”), who influenced many in the current generation of Christian intellectuals.

Sure, Lewis said, evolution could have rendered humans capable of nice behavior; we have affiliative impulses — a herding instinct, as he put it — like other animals. But, he added, evolution couldn’t explain why humans would judge nice behavior “good” and mean behavior “bad” — why we intuitively apprehend “the moral law” and feel guilty when we’ve broken it.

The inexplicability of this apprehension, in Lewis’s view, was evidence that the moral law did exist — “out there,” you might say — and was thus evidence that God, too, existed.

Since Lewis wrote — and unbeknown to many believers — evolutionary psychologists have developed a plausible account of the moral sense. They say it is in large part natural selection’s way of equipping people to play non-zero-sum games — games that can be win-win if the players cooperate or lose-lose if they don’t.

So, for example, feelings of guilt over betraying a friend are with us because during evolution sustaining friendships brought benefits through the non-zero-sum logic of one hand washing the other (“reciprocal altruism”). Friendless people tend not to thrive.

Indeed, this dynamic of reciprocal altruism, as mediated by natural selection, seems to have inclined us toward belief in some fairly abstract principles, notably the idea that good deeds should be rewarded and bad deeds should be punished. This may seem like jarring news for C. S. Lewis fans, who had hoped that God was the one who wrote moral laws into the charter of the universe, after which he directly inserted awareness of them in the human lineage.

But they may not have to stray quite as far from that scenario as they fear. Maybe they can accept this evolutionary account, and be strict Darwinians, yet hang on to notions of divinely imparted moral purpose.

The first step toward this more modern theology is for them to bite the bullet and accept that God did his work remotely — that his role in the creative process ended when he unleashed the algorithm of natural selection (whether by dropping it into the primordial ooze or writing its eventual emergence into the initial conditions of the universe or whatever).

Of course, to say that God trusted natural selection to do the creative work assumes that natural selection, once in motion, would do it; that evolution would yield a species that in essential respects — in spiritually relevant respects, you might say — was like the human species. But this claim, though inherently speculative, turns out to be scientifically plausible.

For starters, there are plenty of evolutionary biologists who believe that evolution, given long enough, was likely to create a smart, articulate species — not our species, complete with five fingers, armpits and all the rest — but some social species with roughly our level of intelligence and linguistic complexity.

And what about the chances of a species with a moral sense? Well, a moral sense seems to emerge when you take a smart, articulate species and throw in reciprocal altruism. And evolution has proved creative enough to harness the logic of reciprocal altruism again and again.

Vampire bats share blood with one another, and dolphins swap favors, and so do monkeys. Is it all that unlikely that, even if humans had been wiped out a few million years ago, eventually a species with reciprocal altruism would reach an intellectual and linguistic level at which reciprocal altruism fostered moral intuitions and moral discourse?

There’s already a good candidate for this role — the chimpanzee.

Chimps, some primatologists believe, have the rudiments of a sense of justice. They sometimes seem to display moral indignation, “complaining” to other chimps that an ally has failed to fulfill the terms of a reciprocally altruistic relationship. Even now, if chimps are gradually evolving toward greater intelligence, their evolutionary trajectory may be slowly converging on the same moral intuitions that human evolution long ago converged on.

If evolution does tend to eventually “converge” on certain moral intuitions, does that mean there were moral rules “out there” from the beginning, before humans became aware of them — that natural selection didn’t “invent” human moral intuitions so much as “discover” them? That would be good news for any believers who want to preserve as much of the spirit of C. S. Lewis as Darwinism permits.

Something like this has been suggested by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker — who, as a contented atheist, can’t be accused of special pleading.

Mr. Pinker has noted how the interplay of evolved intuition and the dynamics of discourse tends to forge agreement on something like the golden rule — that you should treat people as you expect to be treated. He compares this natural apprehension of a moral principle to the depth perception humans have thanks to the evolution of stereo vision. Not all species (not even all two-eyed species) have stereo vision, Mr. Pinker says, but any species that has it is picking up on “real facts about the universe” that were true even before that species evolved — namely, the three-dimensional nature of reality and laws of optics.

Similarly, certain intuitions about reciprocal moral obligation are picking up on real facts about the logic of discourse and about generic social dynamics — on principles that were true even before humans came along and illustrated them. Including, in particular, the non-zero-sum dynamics that are part of our universe.

As Mr. Pinker once put it in conversation with me: “There may be a sense in which some moral statements aren’t just ... artifacts of a particular brain wiring but are part of the reality of the universe, even if you can’t touch them and weigh them.” Comparing these moral truths to mathematical truths, he said that perhaps “they’re really true independent of our existence. I mean, they’re out there and in some sense — it’s very difficult to grasp — but we discover them, we don’t hallucinate them.”

Mr. Pinker’s atheism shows that thinking in these cosmic terms doesn’t lead you inexorably to God. Indeed, the theo-biological scenario outlined above — God initiating natural selection with some confidence that it would lead to a morally rich and reflective species — has some pretty speculative links in its chain.

But the point is just that these speculations are compatible with the standard scientific theory of human creation. If believers accepted them, that would, among other things, end any conflict between religion and the teaching of evolutionary biology. And theology would have done what it’s done before: evolve — adapt its conception of God to advancing knowledge and to sheer logic.



But believers aren’t the only ones who could use some adapting. If there is to be peace between religion and science, some of the more strident atheists will need to make their own concessions to logic.

They could acknowledge, first of all, that any god whose creative role ends with the beginning of natural selection is, strictly speaking, logically compatible with Darwinism. (Darwin himself, though not a believer, said as much.) And they might even grant that natural selection’s intrinsic creative power — something they’ve been known to stress in other contexts — adds at least an iota of plausibility to this remotely creative god.

And, god-talk aside, these atheist biologists could try to appreciate something they still seem not to get: talk of “higher purpose” is not just compatible with science, but engrained in it.

There is an episode in intellectual history that makes the point. It’s familiar to biologists because it is sometimes used — wrongly, I think — to illustrate the opposite point. Indeed, that use is what led Richard Dawkins, one of the most vocal atheist biologists, to allude to it in the title of one of his books: “The Blind Watchmaker.”

The story involves William Paley, a British theologian who, a few years before Darwin was born, tried to use living creatures as evidence for the existence of a designer.

If you’re walking across a field and you find a pocket watch, Paley said, you know it’s in a different category from the rocks lying around it: it’s a product of design, with a complex functionality that doesn’t just happen by accident. Well, he continued, organisms are like pocket watches — too complexly functional to be an accident. So they must have a designer — God.

As Mr. Dawkins pointed out, we can now explain the origin of organisms without positing a god. Yet Mr. Dawkins also conceded something to Paley that gets too little attention: The complex functionality of an organism does demand a special kind of explanation.

The reason is that, unlike a rock, an organism has things that look as if they were designed to do something. Digestive tracts seem to exist in order to digest food. The heart seems to exist in order to pump blood.

And, actually, even once you accept that natural selection, not God, is the “designer” — the blind watchmaker, as Mr. Dawkins put it — there is a sense in which these organs do have purposes, purposes that serve the organism’s larger purpose of surviving and spreading its genes. As Daniel Dennett, the Darwinian (and atheist) philosopher, has put it, an organism’s evolutionarily infused purpose is “as real as purpose could ever be.”

SO in a sense Paley was right not just in saying that organisms must come from a different creative process than rocks but also in saying that this creative process imparts a purpose (however mundane) to organisms.

There are two morals to the story. One is that it is indeed legitimate, and not at all unscientific, to do what Paley did: inspect a physical system for evidence that it was given some purpose by some higher-order creative process. If scientifically minded theologians want to apply that inspection to the entire system of evolution, they’re free to do so.

The second moral of the story is that, even if evolution does have a “purpose,” imparted by some higher-order creative process, that doesn’t mean there’s anything mystical or immaterial going on. And it doesn’t mean there’s a god. For all we know, there’s some “meta-natural-selection” process — playing out over eons and perhaps over multiple universes — that spawned the algorithm of natural selection, somewhat as natural selection spawned the algorithm contained in genomes.

At the same time, theologians can be excused for positing design of a more intentional sort. After all, they can define their physical system — the system they’re inspecting for evidence of purpose — as broadly as they like. They can include not just the biological evolution that gave us an intelligent species but also the subsequent “cultural evolution” — the evolution of ideas — that this species launched (and that, probably, any comparably intelligent species would launch).

When you define the system this broadly, it takes on a more spiritually suggestive cast. The technological part of cultural evolution has relentlessly expanded social organization, leading us from isolated hunter-gatherer villages all the way to the brink of a truly global society. And the continuing cohesion of this social system (also known as world peace) may depend on people everywhere using their moral equipment with growing wisdom — critically reflecting on their moral intuitions, and on the way they’re naturally deployed, and refining that deployment.

Clearly, this evolutionary narrative could fit into a theology with some classic elements: a divinely imparted purpose that involves a struggle toward the good, a struggle that even leads to a kind of climax of history. Such a theology could actually abet the good, increase the chances of a happy ending. A more evolved religion could do what religion has often done in the past: use an awe-inspiring story to foster social cohesion — except this time on a global scale.

Of course, religion doesn’t have a monopoly on awe and inspiration. The story that science tells, the story of nature, is awesome, and some people get plenty of inspiration from it, without needing the religious kind. What’s more, science has its own role to play in knitting the world together. The scientific enterprise has long been on the frontiers of international community, fostering an inclusive, cosmopolitan ethic — the kind of ethic that any religion worthy of this moment in history must also foster.

William James said that religious belief is “the belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.” Science has its own version of the unseen order, the laws of nature. In principle, the two kinds of order can themselves be put into harmony — and in that adjustment, too, may lie a supreme good.

Robert Wright, a senior fellow at the New America Foundation, is the author, most recently, of “The Evolution of God.”




I read about 3/4 of that, but there are two major holes in the logic of what I have read.

1: This article implied that morality may have been a fundamental aspect of the universe which was merely "discovered", rather than invented, by the combination of reciprocal altruism and intelligent communication in a species. The analogy was then made to the laws of optics and the 3D nature of the universe, which was around before life, but was simply discovered when creatures developed optical detectors. This was suggested by an ahteist, but I'm not surprised at all that it was suggested by a psychologist (I highly doubt someone who studies physics, like me, would make such a suggestion). This woman must have no idea what a "fundamental law" actually is. Morality is something that has living organisms embedded in its definition - it requires living things in order to have any meaning. Whereas optics requires radiation and space, two things immediately present after the Big Bang; optics are fundamental laws of the universe. It is insane to imply that something which requires the presence of intelligent life can be considered a fundamental law of the universe. They're basically saying that consideration and general decency towards one another was around in the universe before the first star even formed. I'm sorry, but that morality is as fundamental as optics in the universe is, in my opinion, just an utterly ridiculous notion to accept.

2: One of the most fundamental ideas of evolution is that it is a random process, without a specific direction. That the article says evolutionists should make the comprimise to accept that evolution might have been a plan set out by God who would have predicted that humans would ultimately form is the equivalent of asking evolutionists to completely drop their notion of evolutionary theory and start believing in intelligent design. Yes, I know, the article is taking a step from actual intelligent design to say that no, not every species was created on its own from scratch, and they concede that species' actually have descended from other species', but they're still saying that it was all "programmed" by God, and he could clearly see that the seeds he planted would eventually lead to humans. So they're saying that the the descent and change of genes over time had a specific intent, and humans was the end-all goal. But that is not evolutionary theory at all. It's like asking a physicist to dispose of the premise that light travels the same speed in all frames, but still try to believe in special relativity despite that... special relativity requires that light has the same speed in all frames, and the entire premise of evolution is that there is no intent in the changing of species'.

The biggest problem I have with religion - and this problem is strongly evident in that article - is that it holds to the fact that humans are the center of the universe (not literally, I know, since there is no actual spatial center of the universe). They basically believe that the universe is around just for us. I find this amazing that humans can actually come to that conclusion when we literally see billions of other species' around us. That's even a small deal compared to the fact that we now know that all these stars we're seeing in the sky is a bunch of other suns (many with planets that we have detected) and the sheer size of the universe as we know it literally makes us look like nothing. They come up with the notion that we are the end-all result of evolution. They fail to realize that our traits (intelligence, the ability to build tools, altruism) are just some of many traits that are intended for species' to survive. And it's funny, because they're not even the most effective traits! We are far (faaaaaaaaaaaaar) from being the most stable species out there. Religion is speciocentric, and that is why most religious people are so quick to reject evolution. Evolution implies that we are just one of many that came about by an unbiased process which technically puts other species (like some bacterias for example) in higher regard than us.

This post has been edited by Agraba: 27 August 2009 - 03:53 PM

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:01 PM

I think the article is rather making the (less controversial) claim that the _mathematics_ of morality as exemplified in game theory could be considered a universal truth -- not their specific expression in us humans. Or indeed, in any organism which participates in biological prisoners' dilemmas. And, in the same way that the mathematics of optics are a product of the fundamental nature of the universe as we know it, so too could the mathematics of game theory be considered such.
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Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:45 PM

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 27 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

I certainly understand the concept. And the small changes can to some extent be observed in the field. However that the presumed big changes is a direct result of the small changes is not an observable fact, it's an opinion.

To be fair, you've just rather elegantly demonstrated that you don't understand it at all. Given that argument one would also gather you have difficulties with plate tectonics.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

No, no no, you use my supposed motives to disregard anything I say based on that I "have faith". I have not seen any actual argument, nor an understanding of what I am trying to get across.

What you're trying to get across is why you believe there are reasons to doubt the theory of evolution. Pretty straightforward. What you fail to do is actually provide good reasons for this beyond "Gotta stay open minded" and "God did it"...

Quote

"The arguments aren't sound" isn't an argument, it's an opinion.
The fact that your particular arsenal of arguments get refuted repeatedly would seem to imply they aren't sound. Admittedly I'm using the Principle of Induction to come to this conclusion, and we all know the problems with that...

Quote

No no, you assume a lot of stuff about me, and without asking for clarification, you lump me together with a fictional group of people. Thanks for admitting it.
Given my stated assumptions are based on the evidence you provide and we know how you feel about "evidence"... And we can look around to discover that people whose objections to evolution are primarily faith-based rationalisations really aren't fictional. So either you're being disingenuous again or "fictional" really doesn't mean what you think it does...

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Mistaken eh? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Your problem is that you view your opinion as an observable fact, when it's just an opinion. Those jesuits must have messed up your head immensely. (No I am not being serious - jesuits are probably great, I have never met one)

You should have a chat with a few, they'd disagree with us both, on different things, for different reasons. You they would take to task for lack of intellectual rigour...Evolution, which we should get back to, is observable and has been observed (inasmuch as we can observe a process that takes longer than humans live) and can be considered a fact. As with most things scientific, the theory gets made and then we go out into the world to do experiments and make observations to see if the predictions made by that theory hold up. And they do. Which makes it a successful theory. People have a way of referring to these as facts... For instance, the inverse square law was one of Newton's predictions from his theory of gravity, it has been observed and experimented on (with alterations in the strong limit due to Einstein's theories, which have also been observed and experimented on) and is now considered to be a fact...

Quote

Well, at a first glance on that question - which is a very interesting one, I might add - I would say that the hopes of us understanding our own origin fully is a naive dream. I am not saying we shouldn't pursue it, but right now we seem to be stuck on the quite childish level of stubbornly saying we understand something that we cannot possible understand. We need to recognize the difficulty here.
So what you're saying is that the presence and diversity of life on Earth cannot inherently be understood. That would seem to imply that we should stop making the effort. Which is exactly what you say you aren't doing...

Quote

Secondly, I would explore the possibility that there are things we are missing, information we don't have that would solve the question. Can we be sure we're the only humans in the universe?
No we can't. The universe is a big place. If it were infinite it would be possible to say conclusively that we weren't...

Quote

If there was a previous civilization on Earth, would we actually be able to see the remnants of it anywhere?
Yes, but not in the way you think. A technological civilisation would leave behind more than artifacts, it would leave behind traces in the chemistry of the earth and anomalies in the distribution of minerals. There might also be traces of genetic bottlenecks in animal species due to selective breeding or overhunting. So remnants, but not archaeology...

Quote

To understand our origin is much more than just understanding life's development. To try to see an answer, to fit the puzzle together, when there are key pieces missing, is not only childish, it's futile. Maybe humanity could in, say, a 1000 years, find some answers. But it's hard to tell, since we don't know what keys we are missing, if any, or if the puzzle image is supposed to be something else.
But yes, interesting question. Let me think about it. :)


Well there's an answer that's not an answer. But is nonetheless very illuminating.

Firstly, evolution is about life's development, abiogenesis is about life's origins; they are two different subjects, you're confusing them...

Secondly, to use your metaphor: if one tries to fit a puzzle together only to find there are missing pieces, the gaps in the puzzle tell you something about what shape the the missing pieces are, which helps you to find them when you go looking for them; making an attempt to fit the puzzle together far from futile. What you appear to be suggesting is that completiion of the puzzle only be attempted when you know all the pieces are found, but you can't know if you've found all the pieces until you attempt to complete the puzzle and discover some missing... Which would imply that you believe no attempt to complete the puzzle can and should ever be made... Given your metaphor is aimed at the search for the answers about the origins and development of the unverse and our place in it, that would seem to be a rather big anti-science (and, in passing, anti-religion and anti-curiosity) gun you've pulled out of your coat there.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 27 August 2009 - 06:54 PM

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#1069 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 05:52 PM

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 27 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

I certainly understand the concept. And the small changes can to some extent be observed in the field. However that the presumed big changes is a direct result of the small changes is not an observable fact, it's an opinion.

To be fair, you've just rather elegantly demonstrated that you don't understand it at all. Given that argument one would also gather you have difficulties with plate tectonics.

I do understand the concept, I simply disagree. It seems to you that if one agree one understands, otherwise not.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 25 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

No, no no, you use my supposed motives to disregard anything I say based on that I "have faith". I have not seen any actual argument, nor an understanding of what I am trying to get across.

What you're trying to get across is why you believe there are reasons to doubt the theory of evolution. Pretty straightforward. What you fail to do is actually provide good reasons for this beyond "Gotta stay open minded" and "God did it"...

Why would I need to prove anything? Besides, one of my points are that I couldn't prove it did happen nor that it didn't. My point is that it's about faith.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Quote

"The arguments aren't sound" isn't an argument, it's an opinion.
The fact that your particular arsenal of arguments get refuted repeatedly would seem to imply they aren't sound. Admittedly I'm using the Principle of Induction to come to this conclusion, and we all know the problems with that...
Where were they refuted? I would like you to point to it.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Quote

No no, you assume a lot of stuff about me, and without asking for clarification, you lump me together with a fictional group of people. Thanks for admitting it.
Given my stated assumptions are based on the evidence you provide and we know how you feel about "evidence"... And we can look around to discover that people whose objections to evolution are primarily faith-based rationalisations really aren't fictional. So either you're being disingenuous again or "fictional" really doesn't mean what you think it does...
I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The only possible objection to evolution is faith based, as is the support of the theory. Because you can't prove it nor disprove it, just like with God.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Quote

Mistaken eh? Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. Your problem is that you view your opinion as an observable fact, when it's just an opinion. Those jesuits must have messed up your head immensely. (No I am not being serious - jesuits are probably great, I have never met one)

You should have a chat with a few, they'd disagree with us both, on different things, for different reasons. You they would take to task for lack of intellectual rigour...Evolution, which we should get back to, is observable and has been observed (inasmuch as we can observe a process that takes longer than humans live) and can be considered a fact. As with most things scientific, the theory gets made and then we go out into the world to do experiments and make observations to see if the predictions made by that theory hold up. And they do. Which makes it a successful theory. People have a way of referring to these as facts... For instance, the inverse square law was one of Newton's predictions from his theory of gravity, it has been observed and experimented on (with alterations in the strong limit due to Einstein's theories, which have also been observed and experimented on) and is now considered to be a fact...
Good luck trying to do experiments and observations on evolution. And I'm not talking about evolution inside a particular gene pool. Your argument is ignoring my actual point, as usual. And your argument is not an observable fact, but an opinion.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Quote

Well, at a first glance on that question - which is a very interesting one, I might add - I would say that the hopes of us understanding our own origin fully is a naive dream. I am not saying we shouldn't pursue it, but right now we seem to be stuck on the quite childish level of stubbornly saying we understand something that we cannot possible understand. We need to recognize the difficulty here.
So what you're saying is that the presence and diversity of life on Earth cannot inherently be understood. That would seem to imply that we should stop making the effort. Which is exactly what you say you aren't doing...

I was pretty clear that I didn't mean we should stop, I am just saying we should realize the difficulty - which is much more rational than saying evolution is an observable fact.

View Poststone monkey, on Aug 27 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

Quote

Secondly, I would explore the possibility that there are things we are missing, information we don't have that would solve the question. Can we be sure we're the only humans in the universe?
No we can't. The universe is a big place. If it were infinite it would be possible to say conclusively that we weren't...

Quote

If there was a previous civilization on Earth, would we actually be able to see the remnants of it anywhere?
Yes, but not in the way you think. A technological civilisation would leave behind more than artifacts, it would leave behind traces in the chemistry of the earth and anomalies in the distribution of minerals. There might also be traces of genetic bottlenecks in animal species due to selective breeding or overhunting. So remnants, but not archaeology...

Quote

To understand our origin is much more than just understanding life's development. To try to see an answer, to fit the puzzle together, when there are key pieces missing, is not only childish, it's futile. Maybe humanity could in, say, a 1000 years, find some answers. But it's hard to tell, since we don't know what keys we are missing, if any, or if the puzzle image is supposed to be something else.
But yes, interesting question. Let me think about it. :)


Well there's an answer that's not an answer. But is nonetheless very illuminating.

Firstly, evolution is about life's development, abiogenesis is about life's origins; they are two different subjects, you're confusing them...

Secondly, to use your metaphor: if one tries to fit a puzzle together only to find there are missing pieces, the gaps in the puzzle tell you something about what shape the the missing pieces are, which helps you to find them when you go looking for them; making an attempt to fit the puzzle together far from futile. What you appear to be suggesting is that completiion of the puzzle only be attempted when you know all the pieces are found, but you can't know if you've found all the pieces until you attempt to complete the puzzle and discover some missing... Which would imply that you believe no attempt to complete the puzzle can and should ever be made... Given your metaphor is aimed at the search for the answers about the origins and development of the unverse and our place in it, that would seem to be a rather big anti-science (and, in passing, anti-religion and anti-curiosity) gun you've pulled out of your coat there.

No, I do think we should look for the missing pieces, but first one has to recognize the fact they are missing, and not just ignore the fact that until you actually have the piece, you can't be sure of how it looks. Since the pieces are missing, you need faith to fill the hole. Since science dictates that what isn't there (or rather can't see) doesn't exist. I don't mind people believing in evolution as the answer to our origin - and I certainly understand the need to. But it's not an observable fact, no matter how much you want to it be.

It's not easy to go through this critical phase of ones faith, as evolutionists will have to do, but it pays out, because it makes the mind stronger and more agile, knowing your own inner workings.

I was hoping we could learn something from our very different views, but again I am beginning to repeat myself, and that is never a good sign. :)

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 28 August 2009 - 05:54 PM

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:16 AM

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 29 2009, 03:52 AM, said:

But it's not an observable fact, no matter how much you want to it be.


There are links in this thread. You haven't addressed them at all.
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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:25 AM

Gem is correct, evolution is not observable in it's full scale to anyone who is not at least something approximating immortal. However, SM's comparison to plate tectonics is true. By virtue of the small changes one sees, one can surely extrapolate that over time these add up to a large change. If you disagree on this, Gem, I'd like to know why (note, if you've already answered this, a link to that post would be sufficient), rather than the simple fact that you do.

And claiming that SM is lumping you in with a certain group/mindset and that he doesn't really know your views begs the question that, if he cannot take anything you have said in this thread to be representative of your views and opinions, then why are you bothering? It's an evasive, silly attempt to refute arguments without actually doing any refutation. Don't take this the wrong way, I just view it as somewhat indicative of SM's points about your argument strategy...
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:00 AM

Evolution can't be seen happening and therefore requires faith...? That's your basic point?

Apart from the reams of data showing that evolution has happened; the fossil record, DNA family trees, cladistics, the predictions that the evolutionary model makes about species, their relatedness and even their behaviours that have been shown to be correct... I really could go on. There's a mountain of evidence for it the size of Olympus Mons but what you require is for someone to be around for at least several hundred thousand years with a camera, a pen and a pencil to document it as it happens. You haven't heard of the Principle of Induction then. But, as we're all well aware, data that disagrees with your own preset conclusion doesn't count...

Lets talk about other things that havent been directly observed for which there are mountains of evidence.:

The orbital period of Pluto; no human being has seen a complete orbit because it was only discovered less than a century ago, so presumably the evidence that we have that it takes approximately 248 years to complete one is suspect... Stellar evolution; no one's seen a star go from collapsing gas cloud to travelling along the various arms of the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram, so I guess that doesn't happen either. Fusion processes in the Sun's core; no one's there looking right now so maybe that's not the reason it shines, the fact that we see plenty of evidence for it is irrelevant. The aforementioned Continental Drift; India only looks like it bumped into the bottom of Asia raising the Himalayas and as no-one was out there with a theodolite taking measurements we cannot be sure that that's what happened. The tree outside my house; I didn't see it grow from a seed as it predates my occupancy, I have knowledge of how trees grow but that would appear to be insufficient reason for me to assume that's what actually happened...

If "No one's seen it happen" is your primary objection to evolution, it would seem you have to likewise object to quite a few other things (almost all of Astronomy, Geology and Nuclear Physics, for instance) and you would also appear to be sailing in rather dubious philosophical waters...
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 10:25 AM

View Poststone monkey, on Sep 1 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

India only looks like it bumped into the bottom of Asia raising the Himalayas and as no-one was out there with a theodolite taking measurements we cannot be sure that that's what happened.

Damn skippy...and the sea life that is fossilized in those peaks came from the Great Flood, dont'cha know.

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 12:26 PM

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:25 PM

Having started to read _Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels With Science_, I am starting to wonder if Gem's position arises from a post-modern, deconstructionist view of science as as culturally relative artifact of society: the notion that, without an objective reality against which to make claims, science itself can only claim 'local' truth, rather than objective truth. Her claims of scientific understanding, and the demonstrable falseness of those claims, would seem to be typical of the post-modern attitude to science that seems to be common in American academia (and, lamentably, increasingly common on this side of the Pond): to whit, one need not possess a deep understanding of any particular science in order to subject it to critique from whatever perspective one chooses.

I apologise if this seems to be a personal attack -- such was not my intent. If anything, I am attacking the _character_ of the position held by Gem as typical of a larger phenomenon in scientific criticism, and Gem's happens to be the most convenient example.
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:32 PM

View Poststone monkey, on Sep 1 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

Evolution can't be seen happening and therefore requires faith...? That's your basic point?

Apart from the reams of data showing that evolution has happened; the fossil record, DNA family trees, cladistics, the predictions that the evolutionary model makes about species, their relatedness and even their behaviours that have been shown to be correct... I really could go on. There's a mountain of evidence for it the size of Olympus Mons but what you require is for someone to be around for at least several hundred thousand years with a camera, a pen and a pencil to document it as it happens. You haven't heard of the Principle of Induction then. But, as we're all well aware, data that disagrees with your own preset conclusion doesn't count...

Lets talk about other things that havent been directly observed for which there are mountains of evidence.:

The orbital period of Pluto; no human being has seen a complete orbit because it was only discovered less than a century ago, so presumably the evidence that we have that it takes approximately 248 years to complete one is suspect... Stellar evolution; no one's seen a star go from collapsing gas cloud to travelling along the various arms of the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram, so I guess that doesn't happen either. Fusion processes in the Sun's core; no one's there looking right now so maybe that's not the reason it shines, the fact that we see plenty of evidence for it is irrelevant. The aforementioned Continental Drift; India only looks like it bumped into the bottom of Asia raising the Himalayas and as no-one was out there with a theodolite taking measurements we cannot be sure that that's what happened. The tree outside my house; I didn't see it grow from a seed as it predates my occupancy, I have knowledge of how trees grow but that would appear to be insufficient reason for me to assume that's what actually happened...

If "No one's seen it happen" is your primary objection to evolution, it would seem you have to likewise object to quite a few other things (almost all of Astronomy, Geology and Nuclear Physics, for instance) and you would also appear to be sailing in rather dubious philosophical waters...

Yes SM, knowing about evolution definitely requires faith, or in other words, belief. You could have a strong belief that evolution happens, with evidence to support your claims, but you could throw in the Problem of Induction to raise doubt about methods of extrapolation. Think of crossing a bridge. I might have a justifiable belief that the bridge will hold my weight - the laws of physics might state that it will, giving in your mind a justifiable belief, but until you actually cross that bridge, you cannot by definition be sure that the bridge will hold your weight. You could counter that by saying belief without justifiable evidence does not in any way count as knowledge either, but that is obvious.

You could also argue (not that I am - I like playing devil's advocate) that all those examples aren't technically facts - they are theories. Justified theories, with enough supporting evidence to accept as most likely true, but still theories. One might argue that knowledge has to be predicated on personal experience to be able to be justified as fact. Induction, it could be argued, is an insufficient condition.

I'm sure many epistemologists could cast doubt over much of what people consider "scientific fact". Dubious philosophical waters? That would depend on your threshold of justified true belief. I wouldn't argue this, personally, as technically so long as no defeaters of one's justification exist, a subject is epistemically justified, but that's just me.
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#1077 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 02:19 PM

View Postjitsukerr, on Sep 1 2009, 02:25 PM, said:

Having started to read _Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels With Science_, I am starting to wonder if Gem's position arises from a post-modern, deconstructionist view of science as as culturally relative artifact of society: the notion that, without an objective reality against which to make claims, science itself can only claim 'local' truth, rather than objective truth. Her claims of scientific understanding, and the demonstrable falseness of those claims, would seem to be typical of the post-modern attitude to science that seems to be common in American academia (and, lamentably, increasingly common on this side of the Pond): to whit, one need not possess a deep understanding of any particular science in order to subject it to critique from whatever perspective one chooses.

Interesting. Ideally, though, they should at least possess an understanding, regardless of its depth. Oh, and to be willing to listen to information encountered after making your mind up but that's just a given really.

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on Sep 1 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

You could also argue (not that I am - I like playing devil's advocate) that all those examples aren't technically facts - they are theories. Justified theories, with enough supporting evidence to accept as most likely true, but still theories. One might argue that knowledge has to be predicated on personal experience to be able to be justified as fact. Induction, it could be argued, is an insufficient condition.

I'm sure many epistemologists could cast doubt over much of what people consider "scientific fact". Dubious philosophical waters? That would depend on your threshold of justified true belief. I wouldn't argue this, personally, as technically so long as no defeaters of one's justification exist, a subject is epistemically justified, but that's just me.

But personal experience is subjective, which is like the opposite of fact. Besides, then, I could easily argue that until I get flown high enough to see the curvature of the Earth turning beneath me for a full orbit, or even sent into space, I am forced to believe the world is flat and there's not a damn thing you can do about it before I get to see for myself.
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#1078 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 02:49 PM

Quote

View PostFrom Sep 1 2009, 02:32 PM:

You could also argue (not that I am - I like playing devil's advocate) that all those examples aren't technically facts - they are theories. Justified theories, with enough supporting evidence to accept as most likely true, but still theories. One might argue that knowledge has to be predicated on personal experience to be able to be justified as fact. Induction, it could be argued, is an insufficient condition.

I'm sure many epistemologists could cast doubt over much of what people consider "scientific fact". Dubious philosophical waters? That would depend on your threshold of justified true belief. I wouldn't argue this, personally, as technically so long as no defeaters of one's justification exist, a subject is epistemically justified, but that's just me.

But personal experience is subjective, which is like the opposite of fact. Besides, then, I could easily argue that until I get flown high enough to see the curvature of the Earth turning beneath me for a full orbit, or even sent into space, I am forced to believe the world is flat and there's not a damn thing you can do about it before I get to see for myself.

Not at all. No one is forcing you to believe anything. The belief is your own. If, by mathematical reasoning and inductive logic you can believe that the world is round, then you can call that justifiable belief. Whether that can be considered true knowledge is contingent on the validity of empirical experience that you can attach to your belief.

As to subjectivity, objective experience is an unattainable goal - truth can only be attributed to judgments, which are expressed as propositions that note the degree or lack of agreement between two or more ideas. Thus, any claim to truth is inherently subjective. Besides, very few truths are self-evident. The only claims to validity comes from a combination of empirical data (experience) and rational reasoning. Plus, there's the knowledge distinction between knowing what and knowing how, which confuses things.

It was poor wording on my part, though. The point is, one cannot be 100% sure of any claim to knowledge. One can claim very reasonable justification, but as you said, any experience is subjective, and inductive arguments can by definition neither be valid or invalid, but only contain elements of probability. I'm not saying that the Earth is not round though; experience, mathematical calculations and logic support that claim. However, things that you cannot conceivably have empirical experience of cannot technically be considered true knowledge.
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 02:51 PM

Wow, that's an unconvincing argument. My brain is fried. I'm off to bed.
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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:07 PM

One could, if one were in an argumentative mood, argue that even one's personal experience is suspect. But that way madness lies...
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

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