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Creation Vs Evolution

#1021 User is offline   Epiph 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 05:56 PM

Robert Wright wrote an op-ed for the NY Times about an intellectual compromise between believers and atheists on the religion versus science front. Naturally, PZ Meyers has something to say about it.

Quote

A Grand Bargain Over Evolution
By ROBERT WRIGHT
Published: August 22, 2009

THE “war” between science and religion is notable for the amount of civil disobedience on both sides. Most scientists and most religious believers refuse to be drafted into the fight. Whether out of a live-and-let-live philosophy, or a belief that religion and science are actually compatible, or a heartfelt indifference to the question, they’re choosing to sit this one out.
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Times Topics: Evolution

Still, the war continues, and it’s not just a sideshow. There are intensely motivated and vocal people on both sides making serious and conflicting claims.

There are atheists who go beyond declaring personal disbelief in God and insist that any form of god-talk, any notion of higher purpose, is incompatible with a scientific worldview. And there are religious believers who insist that evolution can’t fully account for the creation of human beings.

I bring good news! These two warring groups have more in common than they realize. And, no, it isn’t just that they’re both wrong. It’s that they’re wrong for the same reason. Oddly, an underestimation of natural selection’s creative power clouds the vision not just of the intensely religious but also of the militantly atheistic.

If both groups were to truly accept that power, the landscape might look different. Believers could scale back their conception of God’s role in creation, and atheists could accept that some notions of “higher purpose” are compatible with scientific materialism. And the two might learn to get along.

The believers who need to hear this sermon aren’t just adherents of “intelligent design,” who deny that natural selection can explain biological complexity in general. There are also believers with smaller reservations about the Darwinian story. They accept that God used evolution to do his creative work (“theistic evolution”), but think that, even so, he had to step in and provide special ingredients at some point.

Perhaps the most commonly cited ingredient is the human moral sense — the sense that there is such a thing as right and wrong, along with some intuitions about which is which. Even some believers who claim to be Darwinians say that the moral sense will forever defy the explanatory power of natural selection and so leave a special place for God in human creation.

This idea goes back to C. S. Lewis, the mid-20th-century Christian writer (and author of “The Chronicles of Narnia”), who influenced many in the current generation of Christian intellectuals.

Sure, Lewis said, evolution could have rendered humans capable of nice behavior; we have affiliative impulses — a herding instinct, as he put it — like other animals. But, he added, evolution couldn’t explain why humans would judge nice behavior “good” and mean behavior “bad” — why we intuitively apprehend “the moral law” and feel guilty when we’ve broken it.

The inexplicability of this apprehension, in Lewis’s view, was evidence that the moral law did exist — “out there,” you might say — and was thus evidence that God, too, existed.

Since Lewis wrote — and unbeknown to many believers — evolutionary psychologists have developed a plausible account of the moral sense. They say it is in large part natural selection’s way of equipping people to play non-zero-sum games — games that can be win-win if the players cooperate or lose-lose if they don’t.

So, for example, feelings of guilt over betraying a friend are with us because during evolution sustaining friendships brought benefits through the non-zero-sum logic of one hand washing the other (“reciprocal altruism”). Friendless people tend not to thrive.

Indeed, this dynamic of reciprocal altruism, as mediated by natural selection, seems to have inclined us toward belief in some fairly abstract principles, notably the idea that good deeds should be rewarded and bad deeds should be punished. This may seem like jarring news for C. S. Lewis fans, who had hoped that God was the one who wrote moral laws into the charter of the universe, after which he directly inserted awareness of them in the human lineage.

But they may not have to stray quite as far from that scenario as they fear. Maybe they can accept this evolutionary account, and be strict Darwinians, yet hang on to notions of divinely imparted moral purpose.

The first step toward this more modern theology is for them to bite the bullet and accept that God did his work remotely — that his role in the creative process ended when he unleashed the algorithm of natural selection (whether by dropping it into the primordial ooze or writing its eventual emergence into the initial conditions of the universe or whatever).

Of course, to say that God trusted natural selection to do the creative work assumes that natural selection, once in motion, would do it; that evolution would yield a species that in essential respects — in spiritually relevant respects, you might say — was like the human species. But this claim, though inherently speculative, turns out to be scientifically plausible.

For starters, there are plenty of evolutionary biologists who believe that evolution, given long enough, was likely to create a smart, articulate species — not our species, complete with five fingers, armpits and all the rest — but some social species with roughly our level of intelligence and linguistic complexity.

And what about the chances of a species with a moral sense? Well, a moral sense seems to emerge when you take a smart, articulate species and throw in reciprocal altruism. And evolution has proved creative enough to harness the logic of reciprocal altruism again and again.

Vampire bats share blood with one another, and dolphins swap favors, and so do monkeys. Is it all that unlikely that, even if humans had been wiped out a few million years ago, eventually a species with reciprocal altruism would reach an intellectual and linguistic level at which reciprocal altruism fostered moral intuitions and moral discourse?

There’s already a good candidate for this role — the chimpanzee.

Chimps, some primatologists believe, have the rudiments of a sense of justice. They sometimes seem to display moral indignation, “complaining” to other chimps that an ally has failed to fulfill the terms of a reciprocally altruistic relationship. Even now, if chimps are gradually evolving toward greater intelligence, their evolutionary trajectory may be slowly converging on the same moral intuitions that human evolution long ago converged on.

If evolution does tend to eventually “converge” on certain moral intuitions, does that mean there were moral rules “out there” from the beginning, before humans became aware of them — that natural selection didn’t “invent” human moral intuitions so much as “discover” them? That would be good news for any believers who want to preserve as much of the spirit of C. S. Lewis as Darwinism permits.

Something like this has been suggested by the evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker — who, as a contented atheist, can’t be accused of special pleading.

Mr. Pinker has noted how the interplay of evolved intuition and the dynamics of discourse tends to forge agreement on something like the golden rule — that you should treat people as you expect to be treated. He compares this natural apprehension of a moral principle to the depth perception humans have thanks to the evolution of stereo vision. Not all species (not even all two-eyed species) have stereo vision, Mr. Pinker says, but any species that has it is picking up on “real facts about the universe” that were true even before that species evolved — namely, the three-dimensional nature of reality and laws of optics.

Similarly, certain intuitions about reciprocal moral obligation are picking up on real facts about the logic of discourse and about generic social dynamics — on principles that were true even before humans came along and illustrated them. Including, in particular, the non-zero-sum dynamics that are part of our universe.

As Mr. Pinker once put it in conversation with me: “There may be a sense in which some moral statements aren’t just ... artifacts of a particular brain wiring but are part of the reality of the universe, even if you can’t touch them and weigh them.” Comparing these moral truths to mathematical truths, he said that perhaps “they’re really true independent of our existence. I mean, they’re out there and in some sense — it’s very difficult to grasp — but we discover them, we don’t hallucinate them.”

Mr. Pinker’s atheism shows that thinking in these cosmic terms doesn’t lead you inexorably to God. Indeed, the theo-biological scenario outlined above — God initiating natural selection with some confidence that it would lead to a morally rich and reflective species — has some pretty speculative links in its chain.

But the point is just that these speculations are compatible with the standard scientific theory of human creation. If believers accepted them, that would, among other things, end any conflict between religion and the teaching of evolutionary biology. And theology would have done what it’s done before: evolve — adapt its conception of God to advancing knowledge and to sheer logic.



But believers aren’t the only ones who could use some adapting. If there is to be peace between religion and science, some of the more strident atheists will need to make their own concessions to logic.

They could acknowledge, first of all, that any god whose creative role ends with the beginning of natural selection is, strictly speaking, logically compatible with Darwinism. (Darwin himself, though not a believer, said as much.) And they might even grant that natural selection’s intrinsic creative power — something they’ve been known to stress in other contexts — adds at least an iota of plausibility to this remotely creative god.

And, god-talk aside, these atheist biologists could try to appreciate something they still seem not to get: talk of “higher purpose” is not just compatible with science, but engrained in it.

There is an episode in intellectual history that makes the point. It’s familiar to biologists because it is sometimes used — wrongly, I think — to illustrate the opposite point. Indeed, that use is what led Richard Dawkins, one of the most vocal atheist biologists, to allude to it in the title of one of his books: “The Blind Watchmaker.”

The story involves William Paley, a British theologian who, a few years before Darwin was born, tried to use living creatures as evidence for the existence of a designer.

If you’re walking across a field and you find a pocket watch, Paley said, you know it’s in a different category from the rocks lying around it: it’s a product of design, with a complex functionality that doesn’t just happen by accident. Well, he continued, organisms are like pocket watches — too complexly functional to be an accident. So they must have a designer — God.

As Mr. Dawkins pointed out, we can now explain the origin of organisms without positing a god. Yet Mr. Dawkins also conceded something to Paley that gets too little attention: The complex functionality of an organism does demand a special kind of explanation.

The reason is that, unlike a rock, an organism has things that look as if they were designed to do something. Digestive tracts seem to exist in order to digest food. The heart seems to exist in order to pump blood.

And, actually, even once you accept that natural selection, not God, is the “designer” — the blind watchmaker, as Mr. Dawkins put it — there is a sense in which these organs do have purposes, purposes that serve the organism’s larger purpose of surviving and spreading its genes. As Daniel Dennett, the Darwinian (and atheist) philosopher, has put it, an organism’s evolutionarily infused purpose is “as real as purpose could ever be.”

SO in a sense Paley was right not just in saying that organisms must come from a different creative process than rocks but also in saying that this creative process imparts a purpose (however mundane) to organisms.

There are two morals to the story. One is that it is indeed legitimate, and not at all unscientific, to do what Paley did: inspect a physical system for evidence that it was given some purpose by some higher-order creative process. If scientifically minded theologians want to apply that inspection to the entire system of evolution, they’re free to do so.

The second moral of the story is that, even if evolution does have a “purpose,” imparted by some higher-order creative process, that doesn’t mean there’s anything mystical or immaterial going on. And it doesn’t mean there’s a god. For all we know, there’s some “meta-natural-selection” process — playing out over eons and perhaps over multiple universes — that spawned the algorithm of natural selection, somewhat as natural selection spawned the algorithm contained in genomes.

At the same time, theologians can be excused for positing design of a more intentional sort. After all, they can define their physical system — the system they’re inspecting for evidence of purpose — as broadly as they like. They can include not just the biological evolution that gave us an intelligent species but also the subsequent “cultural evolution” — the evolution of ideas — that this species launched (and that, probably, any comparably intelligent species would launch).

When you define the system this broadly, it takes on a more spiritually suggestive cast. The technological part of cultural evolution has relentlessly expanded social organization, leading us from isolated hunter-gatherer villages all the way to the brink of a truly global society. And the continuing cohesion of this social system (also known as world peace) may depend on people everywhere using their moral equipment with growing wisdom — critically reflecting on their moral intuitions, and on the way they’re naturally deployed, and refining that deployment.

Clearly, this evolutionary narrative could fit into a theology with some classic elements: a divinely imparted purpose that involves a struggle toward the good, a struggle that even leads to a kind of climax of history. Such a theology could actually abet the good, increase the chances of a happy ending. A more evolved religion could do what religion has often done in the past: use an awe-inspiring story to foster social cohesion — except this time on a global scale.

Of course, religion doesn’t have a monopoly on awe and inspiration. The story that science tells, the story of nature, is awesome, and some people get plenty of inspiration from it, without needing the religious kind. What’s more, science has its own role to play in knitting the world together. The scientific enterprise has long been on the frontiers of international community, fostering an inclusive, cosmopolitan ethic — the kind of ethic that any religion worthy of this moment in history must also foster.

William James said that religious belief is “the belief that there is an unseen order, and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves thereto.” Science has its own version of the unseen order, the laws of nature. In principle, the two kinds of order can themselves be put into harmony — and in that adjustment, too, may lie a supreme good.

Robert Wright, a senior fellow at the New America Foundation, is the author, most recently, of “The Evolution of God.”

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#1022 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 06:18 PM

tbh I stpped reading that after the Watchmaker argument... some fair points there, but the article has some holes.

PS. although I do appreciate the effort.

This post has been edited by Gothos: 24 August 2009 - 06:25 PM

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
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#1023 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 06:28 PM

I stopped at the "morality comes from God" argument... Game theory would seem explain quite a few "moral" impulses and the fact that our brains would seem to be evolved to get on with (or at least model the internal states of) others would explain a few more, whilst culture would seem to explain the rest.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 24 August 2009 - 07:49 PM

If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#1024 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 06:33 PM

well, yeah, it's entirely probable that species that condone mutual support and cooperation fare better, and thus are more fit to adapt and survive. it just works. humans, ants, rats, whales, dolphins... you won't see sharks building communities because they simply don't need to - they're the perfect killers on their own as it is, and they fit into their niche for millions of years.

individually weaker organisms band up together or die out.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
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#1025 User is offline   Epiph 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:35 PM

My back went up when he started telling me, as an atheist, what I should or should not do, but once I got over myself, I thought he made some fair points--I'm not a scientist, nor do I keep as informed of the knowledge as I wish I could, so I can't really comment on whether his evidence is or isn't backed up. But if one wants the religious to loosen up and allow for science in their religion, non-believers should allow believers to merge their faith with science, even if the non-believers personally disagree, which seemed to be the main jist of what Wright was saying, and then trying to use some evidence to back it up. IMO, no religion is better than religion, but less extreme belief systems are way better than extreme belief systems, and I'm willing to try to help believers along to that state.
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#1026 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 07:55 PM

Well, I don't get why there should be a problem to merge religion with science from the start, it's not like anybody has to agree on all of science to merge with it. Not even scientists does that.
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#1027 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:01 PM

I have very little problem with the religious inserting their god of choice into the framework of the universe that scientific enquiry has given to us... Apart from imo them probably being wrong to do so, that is; but that's their choice...

What absolutely pisses me off no end is the insistence that some of them have that, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, if testable, well-documented, open scientific enquiry seems to imply something that conflicts with the testimony and/or worldview of their allegorical Bronze Age (Or Iron Age or Dark Age, depending on religion) text, then it's the science that's mistaken in 100% of cases...

btw Science is always wrong, that's the nature of the beast. But it's always wrong because it is eventually going to be replaced by better, more accurate science. Science that takes into account what went before and improves upon it...
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#1028 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 08:01 PM

Because many people who put stock in science reject religion.

Science also pushes away many of the fundie christian ideas (like the 6000 y/o world.).
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#1029 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:07 PM

Well I agree with you guys - religion is not a pass to stop thinking for yourself. The problem with disproving stuff from old texts though, is that it generally happened so long ago that not even science has a lot to go on. And faith has a tendency to see beyond any scientific agenda, which is only natural.

I am not sure I agree with the sentiment that "Science that takes into account what went before and improves upon it...". The most improvements that Science does is completely rejecting really stupid ideas that people thought were so much right that they ridiculed and/or prosecuted anyone that said otherwise, and build new systems where they incorporate the elements that previously weren't stupid enough to be totally rejected. If science only were as skeptical about itself as it were of the rest of the world, it would be easier for all of us, and less annoying.

More than that, the obvious clash between religion and science is that some science has a very specific agenda of disproving the very core that makes up religious faith - I'm talking generally speaking here, on a ideological level. And at the same time, some religious ideology has an agenda that is completely anti-geometric, thus not able by its very nature to incorporate any criticism.

I don't think it is necessary for neither science nor religious ideology to be so...scared of change. What is, is, and neither science nor faith can effect what is out there - at least of all by throwing a fit and put hands on the ears and hum loudly.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 24 August 2009 - 10:15 PM

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#1030 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 10:30 PM

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 24 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

If science only were as skeptical about itself as it were of the rest of the world, it would be easier for all of us, and less annoying.


the very nature of science is scepticism. it's doubting the established order that pushes it onwards. without questioning, there'd be no progress or improvement.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
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#1031 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:36 PM

View PostGothos, on Aug 24 2009, 11:30 PM, said:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 24 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

If science only were as skeptical about itself as it were of the rest of the world, it would be easier for all of us, and less annoying.


the very nature of science is scepticism. it's doubting the established order that pushes it onwards. without questioning, there'd be no progress or improvement.

Well, exactly. Unfortunately, it's not that simple, or this thread wouldn't have any fuel to go on.
If it was like this:
Science: Oh, look, someone has a different perspective, that makes us work harder to reach a consensus, and we are challenged to build cases that goes beyond out petty differences, and will in the end makes us better and greater than we were before - lets celebrate that difference.
Religion: Oh, it seems we are challenged by science because their patience and willing to listen is slowly making us incorporate new thinking, that enables us to criticize our views and build a more solid faith for ourselves - lets celebrate that difference.
But no, it's more like:
Science: Oh no, they dare to question our ultimate answers to life, universe, and everything! We cannot let them win! We must vanquish this insolence and make them look as stupid and ignorant as they really are! Burn, heretics, BURN!
Religion: Oh no, they dare to question our ultimate answers to life, universe, and everything! We cannot let them win! We must vanquish this insolence and make them look as cynical and hypocritical as they really are! Burn, heretics, BURN!

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 24 August 2009 - 11:36 PM

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#1032 User is offline   Wry 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:45 PM

Wow... i find myself in complete agreement with Gem


This... this has never happened before
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#1033 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:53 PM

Gem, this is a misinterpretation born of your attachment to ideas that simply do not stand up under scientific scrutiny. You think science is inflexible because it doesn't spend more time examining the views of the religious, but in reality these views do not warrant the time that would be wasted on them.

It is arrogant in the extreme to challenge somebody's findings without bothering to understand them.
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#1034 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 12:08 AM

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

Gem, this is a misinterpretation born of your attachment to ideas that simply do not stand up under scientific scrutiny. You think science is inflexible because it doesn't spend more time examining the views of the religious, but in reality these views do not warrant the time that would be wasted on them.

It is arrogant in the extreme to challenge somebody's findings without bothering to understand them.

What exactly are you saying I am misinterpreting? That the ideas don't "stand up under scientific scrutiny" is beside the point - because I was not commenting on who's right just now. I was talking about taking criticism. And I don't think science is inflexible because it "doesn't spend more time examining the views of the religious", as you put it, far from it. I find science inflexible because it borrows itself down a hole where it constantly has to battle religion, as if it is an arch enemy of some kind. Clearly the difference in agenda is something science can draw strength from, not battle. Science doesn't need to defend itself from religious differences, exactly because it is wasted time - it doesn't need to because it's purpose is different. Why does scientists care about what some nutty religious people think? No, seriously? From an ideological perspective, and from other perspectives aswell, it doesn't make any sense.

And please, don't try to discern my motives, you couldn't be more wrong.
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#1035 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 01:04 AM

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

Why does scientists care about what some nutty religious people think?

From the perspective of an investigation of the truth, they don't. Religious people, whether nutty or not, have nothing to contribute to scientific investigation. From a personal perspective, they care only because it is an affront to their work and to the general intelligence of humanity as a whole.

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

And please, don't try to discern my motives, you couldn't be more wrong.

I didn't. I simply read your opinion on a perceived general attitude of the scientific community. Your further elucidation of this opinion has done nothing to alter or enhance it. Science does not "borrows itself down a hole where it constantly has to battle religion, as if it is an arch enemy of some kind". This, again, is your misinterpretation born of your attachment to religious ideas. It is only you who seems to want to do battle. Count how many times you have told someone in this thread how wrong they are, it will only reveal that you have an irrational attachment to the idea that you are always right. Indeed your style of argument is uncannily like the bible, no matter how many times it contradicts itself, it is somehow always right.

ETA: I understand this post is boarderline personal attack. I ensure all mods and admins that I will pursue this line of discussion no further.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 25 August 2009 - 01:07 AM

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#1036 User is offline   Gem Windcaster 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 02:31 AM

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 02:04 AM, said:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

Why does scientists care about what some nutty religious people think?

From the perspective of an investigation of the truth, they don't. Religious people, whether nutty or not, have nothing to contribute to scientific investigation. From a personal perspective, they care only because it is an affront to their work and to the general intelligence of humanity as a whole.
Really? I hear there are some really good scientists that happen to be religious. Are you saying they don't count as scientists? :p

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 02:04 AM, said:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

And please, don't try to discern my motives, you couldn't be more wrong.

I didn't. I simply read your opinion on a perceived general attitude of the scientific community. Your further elucidation of this opinion has done nothing to alter or enhance it. Science does not "borrows itself down a hole where it constantly has to battle religion, as if it is an arch enemy of some kind". This, again, is your misinterpretation born of your attachment to religious ideas. It is only you who seems to want to do battle. Count how many times you have told someone in this thread how wrong they are, it will only reveal that you have an irrational attachment to the idea that you are always right. Indeed your style of argument is uncannily like the bible, no matter how many times it contradicts itself, it is somehow always right.

Oh, don't worry, I find your straw manning amusing. I only find it sad that you think I'm so simple minded. Clearly you are unable to see me as anything else as inferior, and therefore you cannot project any deeper thought processes onto me, nor believe my motives aren't always about 'defending' my religious views.
Just so you know, just as I feel science don't need defending, I also have no need to defend my faith against science. What I am doing here is of pure curiosity and a will to bend my mind to a deeper understanding. I have been criticizing certain scientific thoughts, not science as a whole, just like any scientist would do - my previous criticism just now was just that, a criticism of certain types of scientific discussion. I can't see how you chalk that down to religious motives, unless you think that is all the intellectual reasoning I can do.

And let me be clear - if I wanted to do battle, it would be excruciatingly clear to anyone reading the thread. :p

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 02:04 AM, said:

ETA: I understand this post is boarderline personal attack. I ensure all mods and admins that I will pursue this line of discussion no further.

Oh come on!

Why not take it somewhere else then, I am sure we can find the proper communication channels.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 25 August 2009 - 02:33 AM

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#1037 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 04:41 AM

I wrote a more thorough reply but deleted it because it was all about you, and this thread is not about you. I left one thing:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

View PostCold Iron, on Aug 25 2009, 02:04 AM, said:

View PostGem Windcaster, on Aug 25 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

Why does scientists care about what some nutty religious people think?

From the perspective of an investigation of the truth, they don't. Religious peopleScriptural literalists, whether nutty or not, have nothing to contribute to scientific investigation. From a personal perspective, they care only because it is an affront to their work and to the general intelligence of humanity as a whole.
Really? I hear there are some really good scientists that happen to be religious. Are you saying they don't count as scientists? :p

Apologies, replace "religious people" with "scriptural literalists".
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#1038 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:36 AM

Come on guys, play nice, this thread was only just closed. :p

Now CI, you're of the opinion religious thinking shouldn't factor into scientific reasoning at all, yes? Fair enough, I guess. Gem, you seem to believe science and religion do not have cause to come to loggerheads, because their ideological purpose is different. Fair enough again.

However, science and religion aren't diametrically opposed and always at each other's throats, as you both seem to think. Like Gem said, the very existence of Christian scientists belies that distinction. What the conflict comes down to, really, is ideological differences and their inflexibility. Some scientists feel religion leaps over the fence by using their faith in order to explain the universe. The faithful perceive science as trying to undermine their beliefs. Now, this conflict only exists if you let it. The divide between "rational" science and religion is one of belief, really. Theists have faith that God was capable of making the universe. Some scientists scoff at this and call them stupid, citing the irrationality of a supreme being. Scientists believe in natural selection and the Big Bang. Theists scoff at this and call them stupid, citing causality problems and the irrationality of descending from monkeys. Cos let's face it, being made as we are is far more dignified than being the genetic offspring of poop-flinging monkeys. What neither side seems to possess, though, is the ability to be flexible, to accommodate modern beliefs or accept that, at this point, there really is no right or wrong (I'm talking about the creation/evolution debate here, not science in general). I would argue that religion is more guilty in this regard, but that's merely due to precedent and my lack of further reading. We can see flexibility going on, though, and that is evident in Christian scientists. They can understand that science and religion do not really undermine their beliefs in how the universe works, as they are willing to question those beliefs, and accept that they are fallible. Also, they can accept that religion doesn't necessarily have to answer questions about the nature of the universe, merely their place in it spiritually. Thus, ideological differences.

Really, the only problem I have with religion in science is the the possibility for obstinacy in not accepting things that actually have definitive proof. That the the world is not 6000 years old, for instance, despite copious amounts of evidence to the contrary. Evolution I can understand, as such proof can be argued, but things like that? It's ludicrous. That's where I would agree with CI in that scriptural literalists have no authority to claim that things are scientifically true, based simply on a book that was written 1700-2000 years ago. That, I would say, is using faith to explain the universe without any base in rationality, which is not conducive to scientific progress at all.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 25 August 2009 - 06:38 AM

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 07:40 AM

Very nice post, MTS. I certainly think the main issue is one of inflexibility, however there is a slight issue overall.

Religions claim to be explanations. Science is all about questioning. So yes, they are inherently opposed by their very nature. Those Christians who are scientists have come to accept that the scientific method allows things to be explained in the natural world. If they are willing to believe that there is a scientific explanation for the universe, then they are no longer Christian, as they don't have faith any more. (This is going by a purely no-wavering perspective of faith, and despite certain people's claims to the contrary, I'm afraid that we are onto another issue with religion - people interpret it differently).
If they do still believe, without reservation, that God exists, then there is an issue with them as scientists. They will reject any evidence that disproves their religion or an aspect of their religion. So you see where the conflict comes in, I'm sure.

It's not that religion and science are incompatible, it's that the people involved in them either have to be willing to forgo part of their beliefs, or admit to being biased. See my thing about the Big Bang - neither religion nor science explain, with satisfactory evidence, how the universe came to be (more precisely, what caused the matter of the Big Bang and/or the cause of God). But in order for a man of faith to become a scientist, they must accept the possibility that God does not exist, and this is a breach of their faith. While for a scientist to make provision for the existence of God inhibits the scientific process, as we'd never look for an answer.
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#1040 User is offline   Cold Iron 

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 07:40 AM

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 25 2009, 04:36 PM, said:

What neither side seems to possess, though, is the ability to be flexible, to accommodate modern beliefs or accept that, at this point, there really is no right or wrong (I'm talking about the creation/evolution debate here, not science in general).

I hate Dawkins but it's people like you who have created him.

ETA: Allow me to elaborate. Dawkins is a militant atheist. He wants to wipe out religion. This imo is retarded, as I place high value in religion. However, it is otherwise sane and rational people who make ridiculous allowances, just like mts has done, for the religious who have inflamed him. Scientists need to be flexible about theoretical nuances and details. To use the current example, the mechanics of evolution is a highly discussed and flexible field. The suggestion that scientists need to be flexible in allowing for the belief that evolution never happened is precisely the kind of irrational behaviour that has people like Dawkins doing outrageous things like putting signs on buses.

This post has been edited by Cold Iron: 25 August 2009 - 07:51 AM

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