[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

[quote name='Assail Laughing;116840]When Trull and his Edur fighters cross the Katter river on page 571' date=' is the stone disc set into the river one of Icarium's timekeeping machines? QUOTE']

Yes, it is pretty much confirmed somewhere I don't remember that it is. There is a discussion about this somewhere, but again, I don't remember where.

[wolfgang]

yeah, i had always considered the tiste races to be immune from death by ageing but that would mean there would have to be people who still remembered the betrayal or at least people so closely connected it wouldn't be considered myth

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Andii seemed to be immortal to me. Their population dwindles because their birthrates are so abysmally low.

There was definitely evidence in MT dialogue that Edur had a natural lifespan, but one that was very very long, as in thousands of years. Note how rare death seemed to be for the Edur (outside of war), and how elaborate this meant their death rituals were.

We don't know anything about Liosan lifespans, I think, but it's reasonable to assume they fall between the Andii and Edur in longevity.

[Aptorian]

Did Andarist not say something about Andii aging, him being "older" than Rake because Rake's draconic blood protected him?

The Edur's lifespans always troubled me. Trull indicates in HoC that he's young compared to Onrak(sp?) and that he still hadn't found a wife. But I took that as an indication that Trull is still much older than a human.

Still I don't understand how a people is able to fall as far as the Edur or rather not evolve more, when they supposedly live "for ever" compared to Humans. They seem to suffer from "Elves-syndrom".

Still why should any of the Tiste races live longer than any other.

[Illuyankas]

You can unascend - descend, even - which, I imagine, is exactly what Andarist did. How, I'm not sure.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Apt;117176 said:

Still why should any of the Tiste races live longer than any other.

The three races have varying levels of "purity" - a dangerous term, but I hope you get the idea.

The Tiste Andii are the first, the "true" children. Pure. Immortal.

The Liosan came next, and were born of light. Their "purity" level is not known.

But the Edur were formed of a union between the two, and are shunned/disdained by the first races. They are not "pure". They are not immortal.

(I found it strangely distasteful to write this reply.)

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;117195 said:

The three races have varying levels of "purity" - a dangerous term, but I hope you get the idea.

The Tiste Andii are the first, the "true" children. Pure. Immortal.

The Liosan came next, and were born of light. Their "purity" level is not known.

But the Edur were formed of a union between the two, and are shunned/disdained by the first races. They are not "pure". They are not immortal.

(I found it strangely distasteful to write this reply.)

Ah yes the topic of "race purity" - I've never actually taken the meaning as anything but idealogical. It's the same as The Greek Culture believing itself more pure than all the other peoples around it's kingdoms. While for example the babylonians and the Persians thought themselves superior to their Greek or Roman conquerors like Alexander and Cesar.

In the same way both the Andii and the Liosan describe themselves as the pure race, while the Edur just believe themselves righteous and the superior mix. None of them are necessarily better than the others, rather they are dependent on each others aspect.

They've been at war for half a million years, they are both deeply entreanched in their beliefs. We could compare it to the short story about the trenchwarfare of WW1. Both sides are killing each other but they also both hold the opinion that they are on the side of good and that God is with them. No one os with any of the Tiste races. MD just wanted love but the Andii didn't like stepdad and the Liosan didn't like their big black stepmom. The poor Edur bastards were treated like the ugly cinderela and picked on by all the other children. They are all created in the image of their parents but all compete for the place of favorite child.

There's a disney movie somewhere in the pages of the MBotF

Edit: @ Illy - Yes but when he then gave up his power did he then grow old? I remember Andarist thinking of himself as an old man... meaning worn down, able to die of old age in a score more thousand years, perhaps.

[Illuyankas]

He gave up his draconean blood when Scabby was still alive, he's lived for maybe 400,000 years. That's plenty of time to grow old.

[Aptorian]

Apt;117201 said:

I've never actually taken the meaning as anything but idealogical. It's the same as The Greek Culture believing itself more pure than all the other peoples around it's kingdoms. While for example the babylonians and the Persians thought themselves superior to their Greek or Roman conquerors like Alexander and Cesar.

In the same way both the Andii and the Liosan describe themselves as the pure race, while the Edur just believe themselves righteous and the superior mix. None of them are necessarily better than the others, rather they are dependent on each others aspect.

They've been at war for half a million years, they are both deeply entreanched in their beliefs. We could compare it to the short story about the trenchwarfare of WW1. Both sides are killing each other but they also both hold the opinion that they are on the side of good and that God is with them. No one os with any of the Tiste races. MD just wanted love but the Andii didn't like stepdad and the Liosan didn't like their big black stepmom. The poor Edur bastards were treated like the ugly cinderela and picked on by all the other children. They are all created in the image of their parents but all compete for the place of favorite child.

There's a disney movie somewhere in the pages of the MBotF

Bump -

what are peoples opinions on purity/impurity of Andii vs Liosan vs Edur? Are there any actual proof that one of the races are superior to another? is there any quotes that say one lives longer than the other or is stronger?

I mean "proof" that is not just boasting on the side of the race's own members.

Feel free to put some Spoiler tags on them if you got BH or RG ones.

[Aptorian]

What about the purity question... is one race better than the other?

I believe not. Their warrens health aside, they live equally long I believe. I don't think Andii wield more power than the Liosan or the Edur could if they hadn't happened to have had such poor leadership and protection.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I think the Lisoan must live at least as long as the Andii, as a basis for their arrogance. Their emnity with the Andii suggests a knowledge to some degree of them, so they cannot be particularly shorter-lived or their arrogance would be hard to maintain, with this symbol of inferiority in terms of age.

I do think the Andii are a little more powerful than the Liosan though because of the neccessity of a blood ritual of sorts for Liosan magic (like when the four open a portal with Monok Ochem), which would suggest that the Liosan took up the practice in an attempt to become more powerful than or to match the Andii. The lack of a similar ritual amongst the Andii would seem to indicate that they were strong enough for the increased power of the Liosan not to bother them.

[Aptorian]

Thelomen Toblerone;118009 said:

I think the Lisoan must live at least as long as the Andii, as a basis for their arrogance. Their emnity with the Andii suggests a knowledge to some degree of them, so they cannot be particularly shorter-lived or their arrogance would be hard to maintain, with this symbol of inferiority in terms of age.

I do think the Andii are a little more powerful than the Liosan though because of the neccessity of a blood ritual of sorts for Liosan magic (like when the four open a portal with Monok Ochem), which would suggest that the Liosan took up the practice in an attempt to become more powerful than or to match the Andii. The lack of a similar ritual amongst the Andii would seem to indicate that they were strong enough for the increased power of the Liosan not to bother them.

I just reread a part of HoC where Heboric is chatting with L'oric, where Kurald Galain and Kurald Liosan are described as the parents and Kurald Emurhlan is described as the child. So I guess we could say that the Edur in their nature is if not weaker then certainly different.

About the Liosan magic. I'm some what undecided if their use of bloodmagic and prayers are a sign of weakness. I took it as the Liosan having been isolated for a +300.000 years and therefor haven't evolved further than the Andii on Wu.

Who knows, maybe the Andii people still living in Galain are like the Liosan or even the Edur. Personally I took it as the result of the Liosan just being more "magically primitive" than the Andii, worshipping their Father unlike the Andii who have forsaken their Mother. Bacause their God is gone they had more elaborate terms of use if you would.

[Red_orbiT]

Seems to me the edur are more human like than the andii. They have (probably)shorter lifespans, but they are not affected by the andii depression. They don't seem to be a dying race to the same extent as the andii. Korlat says in MoI that the andii rarely have any sexual relations between eachother because they don't really care, that they have very few children wich of most are a result of boredom.
Trull on the other hand has three brothers, his brothers feud for the attention of a woman. They seem to lack the "Meh, what a boring world, let's just sit here and sulk." feeling the andii seem posessed by. Unfortunately, they seem to lack their wisdom too.

[Aptorian]

I think the reason to why the Liosan in HoC wasn't killed that easily was because they were under the protection of the Liosan priestwarrior-guy. That's what saved them from the Munition and also was the cause of one of them not bleeding out after Onrak cut open his stomach.

On the case of the Andii thinking little of the dead, I think it comes of their age. Wheter their souls return to Galain, is taken by Hood or they just cease to exist, feeling sorrow is pointless. What I mean is, from a collected and distanced wiew sorrow is a selfish and pointless act. Dead is dead and your tears wont bring back your loved ones. Sorrow is a selfish act, because what we mourn is not the persons loss of life but our own loss of theur presence in our own lives.

An Andii that has lived for hundreds of thousands of years isn't bottered by the same qualms as a short lived human. They've lost all interest in life of death. I think it was described how The Andii could fight with an incredible ferocity but when their will to live ceased they would just let them selves be cut down and fall dead to the ground. The other Andii accepted this, they all had the same almost endless life to look forward to and therefor many years ago had ceased to care. In Korlats case it was different since WJ reawakened the love of life burried under the layers of aeons of living.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

Apt;119134 said:

What I mean is, from a collected and distanced wiew sorrow is a selfish and pointless act. Dead is dead and your tears wont bring back your loved ones. Sorrow is a selfish act, because what we mourn is not the persons loss of life but our own loss of theur presence in our own lives.

Quite interesting point of view.
i like it, though
Gonna give it more thought:)