[Sir Thursday]

If the KCNR were more upright it might imply that there was lower gravity on the world that they came from...once again the moon is a good bet.

I think it is implied that the KCCM evolved from the KCNR, but that now the KCCM are the ones that are extinct (unless there are some around that we haven't seen).

Sir Thursday

[Kage-za]

To me it seems most reasonable that the KCNR vanished from Wu once the KCCM came and started fighting them, so Wu-ian scholars assumed they were more primitive and then went extinct. This does not have to be true if the KC have their own world/warren where they can hang out indefinitely. With a nod to the first post in the thread, the only thing that they seem to share in common with Elient are that they have a Matron (Tiam=Dragon Matron).

I think the most interesting part of Kallor's statement is that it's completely unreliable UNLESS he has (or had) a way to communicate with the KC. There have been suggestions that his empire was linked to one of the KC before, at least inasmuch as he may have used their technology (and the question always remains, how did he kill his entire empire without high magic?). I need to check BH again, but didn't Icarium read KC writing? If Kallor can read their writing, can he communicate with them on behalf of the CG?

[Kage-za]

Thanks Hetan. Now why does a race with a supposed hive mind need writing? Is that proof that all non-undead KC can think for themselves?

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Matrons must have been able to communicate, with each other and their descendants.

Plus we only know of two types of KCCM, the Matrons and the K'ell Hunters. There must have been worker classes, skilled craftsmen, etc, to support the civilisation. So it's not implausible there were intelligent language using KCCM castes, even scholars. Thus, a language.

Also, they were highly technological. The use of language is a given for such an advanced civilisation.

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir;114958 said:

Also, they were highly technological. The use of language is a given for such an advanced civilisation.

I thought it was just the KCNR that were highly technological, not the KCCM.

And the writings are not necessarily by the KCCM. They could've been done by the people they ruled over, like the Jaghut, and the language would've been necessary for communication between the species.

[frank]

Are the KCNR now the dominant spicies again wherever they are from? Why did they not come back until now?
Doesn't the jade giants travel in deep space while Heboric I think it is, "visit" them? If so they can't be from the moon.
When the moon is lower after healing Mappo it's probably means later that night.
For 3 out of 4 moons to be in the suns shadow they would have to be REALLY close and wouldn't they be visable from elsewhere on the globe?

Don't write to fast because I'm a slow reader.

[Tiger_sword]

Ok heres what i think (Bit of a crazy theory):

Short tails around first then the long tails come with their matrons, more powerful they wipe out the short tails.

However, from what i can understand its only the matrons that can breed (i.e. no long tails can breed together) so when war breaks out with EG and the Edur the matrons (who are being wiped out) decided to resurrect the short tails to breed and increase the population. Only the short tails decide that civil war is the way to go. With the death of the matrons the long tails are essentially doomed, but the short tails can go into hiding (moon etc?)

I guess their isn't really that much proof only the rough timeline - It just seams to fit

[Aptorian]

frank;121838 said:

Are the KCNR now the dominant spicies again wherever they are from? Why did they not come back until now?
Doesn't the jade giants travel in deep space while Heboric I think it is, "visit" them? If so they can't be from the moon.
When the moon is lower after healing Mappo it's probably means later that night.
For 3 out of 4 moons to be in the suns shadow they would have to be REALLY close and wouldn't they be visable from elsewhere on the globe?

Don't write to fast because I'm a slow reader.

Your post is a bit confusing, there's some parts where I don't know if you are speculating or asking.

Since the KCCM are dead and gone, if it is KCNR inside the moons, then yes, by default, they are dominant.

The JG travel in what seems like space or some place inbetween worlds/dimensions. No one has said that they came from the moon. The realm that the CG came from has never been said to be the moon, so there's no need for them to be coming from there.

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When the moon is lower after healing Mappo it's probably means later that night.

I have no idea of what you mean, uhm, yes it took some time to heal him... Are you saying you don't belive the presence of the moon or at least it's light came close to "Wu"?

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For 3 out of 4 moons to be in the suns shadow they would have to be REALLY close and wouldn't they be visable from elsewhere on the globe?

We don't even know that these moons still exist, if they do, they don't seem very important for the rest of the story... or am I missing something?

[Dolmen 2.0]

hmmm I've followed this threads meandering direction over some time and (wisely) chose to be silent till now where I'd like to highlight a simple point of view. If the Kcnr are from a moon like plane and escaped into the imperial warren as previously suggested how is it that they appear on the malazan world as well? We assume that the imperial warren is being claimed by the KCNR but I'd imagine it to be a simple staging point for a re-entry into the malaz world, Where I believe they existed originaly before fleeing to the moon.

In regards to the K'chain being linked to the "denizens of SD" I guess its an imposed idea but I still believe that there could be a link in someway due to the fact that dragons are essentialy at the core of everything that goes on in the malaz world. Cottilion I believe intends to investigate this very truth to see how much power lies in Draconian lineage and whether its feasable to manipulate it. I believe the KCNR found a way to manipulate the power of draconian blood. once again purely a theory with little or no grounding but I believe the intent of cottilion is as good as proof that such a thing as manipulating the power of dragons is possible.

[SilchasRuin]

my bit theory was that dinosaurs (such as the ones urko was reconstructing the skeletons of) were the primitive form of KN then they became KC

and then theres dragons , enkar'al , wyverns and so on in another gene pool

[tiam]

Corlo in MT calls the KCCM a cross beetween lizards and dragons. dont know whether that helps or just a description ratyer than SE saying basicly small t rexs.

Id say the KCNR died out but had already spawned the KCCM. In a very similar way to the Imass - Human relationship. Then the KCCM who were so advanced (dont know which is more advanced the NR or the CM not that it really matters.) they found a way to bring back some neandethol (?) KCNR and decided to do it. But the KCNR werent keen on the whole merging the power with the matron so they rebelled.

As to the moon i assume they lived there until they saw the JG coming down and fled to their own home which just happens to be the imperial warren. Explaining why the sky keeps were entirely full (accrding to Cotillion) for an extinct species. It was an entire people on the move.

Another more odd theory is that the KCNR are originally from the moon. THey of course had vas travel (sky keeps) at there control and could obviosly see earth. They invaded/explored earth and due to the changes from the moon to the earth the KCCM became prominent on earth. Thy evolved because of the atmosphere or something equally obscure on earth. This then led to the domination of earth by the KCCM and the KCNR became extinct on earth because no more were being born on earth however there were still a nation on the moon.

JUst my thoughts cos i havent bin on in a while