[tjc52]

This might not be the right place for this thread, but still...

Kallor claims to have "walked this land when the T'Lan Imass were children" at some stage in MoI. In MoI, the prologue dates back to the Fall, and the removal, if you like, or the Kallorian Empire by K'rul, by which time there are only 3 elder gods still active, so this must be long after the new prologue. But, if Kallor is older than the Imass, then what is he? He cant be human, as they're the descendents of the Imass.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Kallor's statement about the Imass is considered a boast.

He lived 180,000 years after the Imass Ritual. 120,000 years before Burn's Sleep.

He was not an ascendant before he was cursed to eternal life, and he is just a human. It's stated that he forged his Empire because he was a formidable warrior.

Absent explicit and reliable confirmation to the contrary (ie not statements made by Kallor like the one above), we have to say that he had only a normal human lifespan before he was cursed by the Elder three, and there is no way he was around when the Imass were young.

[GardenGnome]

Kallor is human - "No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin" (MoI, p. 36).

Those 3 elder gods described must clearly be wrong, as there is at least Mael around and kicking, unless he's a younger elder god or so. Then we have the wolves, who are often described as Elder, allthough they themself think of the Elder gods as very young (also in the MoI prolouge)...

It could be that Kallor exagerated - it's a fairly common rhetoric, after all, and I do believe I remember that quote as something he just said in passing, in order to give himself greater importance and experience.

[Kallor]

kallor was cursed into immortality by k'rul et al ... this is why he continues to age ... he was around before the fall of the crippled god (indeed, kallor was the reason for the crippled god's summoning by the mage cadre) ... he's been around awhile ...

[Sir Thursday]

Kallor;111460 said:

kallor was cursed into immortality by k'rul et al ... this is why he continues to age ... he was around before the fall of the crippled god (indeed, kallor was the reason for the crippled god's summoning by the mage cadre) ... he's been around awhile ...

We get the story from the man himself!

Albeit strangly in third person...

Sir Thursday

[tjc52]

I am honoured that the great Kallor himself would reply to my post. Thanks!

[tiam]

GardenGnome;111444 said:

Kallor is human - "No, it took a mortal human to achieve this level of tyranny over his kin" (MoI, p. 36).

Those 3 elder gods described must clearly be wrong, as there is at least Mael around and kicking, unless he's a younger elder god or so. Then we have the wolves, who are often described as Elder, allthough they themself think of the Elder gods as very young (also in the MoI prolouge)...

It could be that Kallor exagerated - it's a fairly common rhetoric, after all, and I do believe I remember that quote as something he just said in passing, in order to give himself greater importance and experience.

I actually wasnt sure of Kallors heritage. I dont think Mael is a younger EG i think they were all created (not the right word and also very confusing but lets not go there) at the same time for different reasons. i also dont think Krul is the most elder of all as is stated in GOTM seen as his aspect (compared to Mael which is the sea) is very old. I think he only came into his being recently but has existed longer.

Also given that Ardata is an unknown EG (cant really by Kilamandaros i wouldnt think) how come the 3 EG that assailed Kallor couldnt sense her? i mean i know there good at hiding but Mael was sensed by Turidal Brizad (speculation on my part maybe theyd met but it seems likely mael wanted anonymity due to his distaste for being worshipped and was sensed by the Errant) and only him due to the isolation of Lether. surely EG on the same continent could sense one of there hidden kin

[GardenGnome]

Kallor clearly states that Ardata had run before he laid waste to Jacuruku. And calling her a EG is still just guesses, allthough it seems likely in my oppinion.

As for Mael being young, I didn't really believe that theory, it was just the only explanation I could think of to fit with the entire "three last EG" thingy.

[Gothos]

Kallor likes to boast. by the time he was around, T'lan Imass were not children anymore. rhetoric, he likes to talk a lot when given the chance, a speech man.

[tiam]

GardenGnome;111479 said:

Kallor clearly states that Ardata had run before he laid waste to Jacuruku. And calling her a EG is still just guesses, allthough it seems likely in my oppinion.

As for Mael being young, I didn't really believe that theory, it was just the only explanation I could think of to fit with the entire "three last EG" thingy.

Not really a guess. Mappo clearly notes that ardata was/is an EG and she had Mogora as a companion/ servant /acolyte

[Sir Thursday]

It's not that clear cut though, because in the MoI prologue we see Ardatha, whereas in BH Cotillion mentions Ardata. So it is conceivable that they are different people, as the names are not exactly the same.

Sir Thursday

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sir Thursday;111491 said:

It's not that clear cut though, because in the MoI prologue we see Ardatha, whereas in BH Cotillion mentions Ardata. So it is conceivable that they are different people, as the names are not exactly the same.

Sir Thursday

Not a disproof of her being an Elder God, since there is often (regional?) variation in the names of characters - particularly ascendants & gods.

E.g. Trake/Treach, Anomander/Anomandaris, Osserc/Osric

Besides, it's very clear the two are the same person. The person Mappo meets - Ardata - speaks about Kallor, being part of his Empire, and even appears to live in roughly the time period of Kallor's Empire (it's actually 5 years after Kallor destroyed the Empire, if I remember correctly). In other words, she meets the known info about Ardatha entirely, and is clearly the same person.

(caveat: although they are clearly the same entity, it's possible the Elder Goddess Ardata maintained a different appearance/personality/profile in her role as a minor ruler who was a vassal of Kallor, since he clearly didn't know she was an EG)

[Folken]

Not to agree with Dolorus about them being the same person, but the argument presented about the various, similar, names is sound.

One of two things could've happened...either it is as DM says and its a variation of the name or, simply put (considering this is close to a 900 page novel and the proximity of T and H is really not all that far on a keyboard) a typo on Erikson's part, its not so hard to believe now is it?

[tiam]

Yeh although we can use the name variation fact pointed out by D Menhir its more likely were being generous and is more of a typo or SE went 'Whats her name again? Ard...' then put something in.

[Hume]

Yeh I'd probably agree with Dolorous there.

Seems fairly self-evident to me.

[Onos]

Maybe what is meant by the 'last 3 EGs' is the last 3 ACTIVE ones. Mael had gone under a rock for example. The rest could simply have gotten tired of acting the part of elder gods. T&F i think were pretty much hibernating too. One way or another the rest of the EGs were either dead or just doing their own thing while having unofficially renounced the EG duties. That is my impression of that quote at least.

[Folken]

In Midnight Tides we learnt that there were a lot of "gods" so to speak in that little underwater cave thing made by Mael. these Gods had lost their names and were no longer powerful or had any power. thus when you think about it, the time of the Elder Gods was coming to an end, new younger Gods were coming to take their place. Let us take the example of Hood, there wasn't always a Lord of Death, there had to be an Elder God of Death, because that is the way of life. To worship, thus there had to be an Elder God of Death, who presumably was overthrown by Hood yes? no? Makes some sense?

[tiam]

I dont think death tho. I know it was only an example but death was stated by the imass to have more of a spiritual route. In HOC or something like that (good memory this early) when Trull is talking to Onrack about the eres. Trull says were these gates/portals Hoods doing to which onrack replies no Hood did not exist at this time. So i dont think theres an EG of death life or the other more modern aspects. I think that the EG had more obscure ones (time for example or more of the ones on that list that Cotillion gives in BH)

[Aptorian]

Indeed, my impression was that before Hood came along, spirits simply roamed the world or travelled to othr places of their race or civilization. Think about the layers of spirits found in 7C, they aren't all nature spirits.

I'm guessing that when Hood was descibed as the Deathwanderer, it was ment that, like the other powers, Death was a wandering power without laws and purpose. When Hood arrived or took over, Death became manifest in the sense that it claims all souls. Regardless of race and age.

Remember hoods realm trying to take the Elder Barghast spirit when it had strayed in there. Hoods warren is kind of like the Azath of spirits. Just like the Azath it's hinted that hood doesn't really do anything with the spirits.