[Monoch Ochem]

Eh?? Tom Cruise????

[Abyss]

dskinner;167462 said:

Hey, just a quick thought about the whole "gauntleted fist killed Bloodeye" but now we know Kilmandaros (no armor) killed Bloodeye argument.

I don't think we even need to concern ourselves with this discrepancy. After all, Kilmandaros has extra joints...a mailed fist would have spikes that would simulate this. So, I think the discrepancy resolves itself nicely with the knowledge that Killy is multi-jointed and huge.

I think this is Edur historical re-writing, along the lines of Scabby having 3 daughters and being an all around swell guy betrayed by that awful Ruin dude.

No doubt they picture Kila' as a monstrous male, big as the horizon, with eighteen spiked gauntled fists blazing with auras of fire and cholesterol, beating the poor weakened-by-betrayal Scabby who was trying heroically to protect his victimized peoples, simultaneously fighting the Andii, healing the sick, and impregnanting all the women, Edur AND Andii, and probably K'chain Che'malle just because he was THAT magnificent.

- Abyss, notes history is written by the animators.

[Monoch Ochem]

Since he THAT magnificent then they could have just said that he put his eye out with his 'magnificence' and that's how he kicked the bucket.

[Tiste Simeon]

I have moved on from the RG prologue...

[Monoch Ochem]

It seems that Prologues are more common than Mockra among mages these days.

What state of affairs is this???? What's going on here exactly? While I wage a daily war against my malcontent, thanks to Bantam 'Bastards' Books publishers, prologues for books not even scheduled for release are on offer to bearers of untold privilege.

I'm seriously looking into this theory of will-power being so strong as to defy the very laws of existence in order to procure VENGEANCE! Yes, I'm talking about the Vow of Tellann. I wonder if I channelled my Inner Disturbance using a few select drops of Tiste (Simeon) blood, would I be able to relentlessly pursue Pallor across the continents, heedless of time, elements or distance until I find him and...

OK, First I need to make a trip to York.

[Bottle]

I really enjoyed the prologue, though it did seem quite short! Will it be longer in the final draft?

I think on the topic of “Can a soletaken Elient Die?”, I would argue they can. In the case of Scabandari, his soul would only live on because the ‘Hold of Death’ or something, was missing from the Letherii Continent. And Scabandari’s comment about Ruin was only that he himself did not have the power to kill Ruin.

With the Timeline problem, I think we can trust SE, his books aren’t that big, and for someone who must live, breath and sleep in the Malazan world (or his warren of choice) he wouldn’t have made a mistake. And so this just means we have some exiting twist to be revealed!

I enjoyed the introduction of the Lone rider the most. I found it interesting as I had always imagined the Letherii Empire to have conquered all of the Southern part of the continent. Am I right in saying that the Awl’dan is still free from the Letherii Empire? It seems the Edur have also made no presence this far south, as he makes no comment of them accompanying the Drene Army either, which is interesting too.

The Rider’s history, it states he had been away from home for a long time, where? Fighting in the neighbouring provinces? Unlikely as in that time he managed to pick up two deadly companions. Unlikely to, would it be Genebackis (sp?) or towards the Perish, as surely he would see the resemblance in the soldiers dead to either of the ‘Grey’ companies. My guess is either Assail, or he’s a Warren surfer to have been united with such companions.

Seems the dead soldiers do have a link with T&F. My guess would be Perish rather then the grey swords as I can’t see them as having a means of getting over there, though I really doubt they travelled in the barghast canoes. (One little side theory on the canoes is maybe they arrived already empty, out of a warren or brought on the tides. Or maybe they're 'dusted' T'lan Imass, Doesn't MOI show them not able to travel vast streches of water whilst in Dust form?) Anyway the Perish would have no need, as BH shows them already in possession of luxury yachts! And I do not think they would have enough soldiers to spare from such a small kingdom already at war with its neighbouring states, especially for a war that’s really nothing to do with them. The dead army would also have to be much smaller, as one Drene army where able to defeat them, perhaps the Perish arrived via another ritual portal? They already have mysterious motives for what they’re up to.

The fact they had Ginger and Blonde hair was quite interesting. Fair hair gives us reason to believe they descend directly from the First Empire (as with the Letherii, and the subjugated race in seven cities Samar Dev recalls) Ginger hair gives them a common descendant to the Falari whom we already know to have descended from an ancient sea-faring empire. (other ‘ginger’ characters such as Stonny and Fiddler only add to this idea.) Perhaps stock from the First Empire have both Fair and Ginger hair, suggesting these came from a ‘pure blood’ colony, but then why did the rider remark that they where different to letherii?... Also I can’t remember a description of what the Perish looked like.

Despite the Talons, I don’t think his companions where K’chain Che’melle, only two of them being able to kill the victorious Drene army (which the rider believed they could do) and also that they kill for pleasure, makes them too powerful and too psychologically active to be KCCM, (I always presumed they had some sort of hive-mind and acted as drones.) perhaps they could be some sort of demon, but its suggested he doesn’t have much communication with them as he can't discern their motives for killing…

Phew, ahhh too much to think about… My mind is begining to unravel, so soon!

[Aptorian]

Gothos and Mael say it themselves, Scabby-Dabby-Doo's soul was to powerfull to be claimed by Hood or what ever deathpool was around back then.

Also the ritual wasn't actually in effect at the very place they were standing just then... otherwise they'd be inside a glaciers

[Bottle]

I was basing it on this line:

Quote

Gothos: “Very well. Kilmandaros. Within the Ritual that now descends upon this land, upon the battlefields and these ugly forests, death itself is denied. Should you kill the Tiste Edur here, his soul will be unleashed from his flesh, but it will remain, only marginally reduced in power.” (RG: prologue)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;168661 said:

Gothos and Mael say it themselves, Scabby-Dabby-Doo's soul was to powerfull to be claimed by Hood or what ever deathpool was around back then.

Also the ritual wasn't actually in effect at the very place they were standing just then... otherwise they'd be inside a glaciers

The Ritual was in effect across the whole continent of Lether in MT, and yet the characters were not living under glaciers.

[Aptorian]

Bottles quote above says as much, in the scene with Killy, Mael and Scabby, the ritual was descending upon the land. I take it that a few minutes, hours, years later a big fat glacier was in fact in place there.

Concerning present day, the Ice disappeared, subsided to the north and wasnt the rituals effect subsiding by the end of MT, so much I thought we were all clear on?

[Bottle]

I thought the Ritual was two-fold, preserving creatures in glaciers was one thing, but secondly "death was denied" across that continent, which didn't involve any freezing, Hence why all the ghosts lingered in Lether rather then descending to Hood's realm. I think the quote above implies Scabandari couldn’t be killed because of the ritual.

[Aptorian]

Bottle;168680 said:

I thought the Ritual was two-fold, preserving creatures in glaciers was one thing, but secondly "death was denied" across that continent, which didn't involve any freezing, Hence why all the ghosts lingered in Lether rather then descending to Hood's realm. I think the quote above implies Scabandari couldn’t be killed because of the ritual.

I guess it might depends on how powerfull he actually was. Ruin couldn't be killed outright...

I'm on par with the death denied part, I just didn't think of it as concerning Scabbies spirit.

[Bottle]

I may be wrong, but I argue that if it wasn't relavent to Scabandari's spirit, then why would Gothos mention the ritual's effect of 'denying death' when explaining to Kilamandaros why he couldn't be killed there.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;168690 said:

I guess it might depends on how powerfull he actually was. Ruin couldn't be killed outright...

I'm on par with the death denied part, I just didn't think of it as concerning Scabbies spirit.

As Bottle says, they are exactly the same issue. They couldn't kill Scabby "properly" because the Ritual was messing up the orderly procedure of dying on Lether.

[Monoch Ochem]

Agreed with Bottle and Dolorous. My understanding too was that death itself was held in stasis, despite the absence of any physical ice yet present in that specific place.

[MTS]

hi! im new here but in regards to what someone said earlier about Icarium only shattering one main shard, in this case im not so sure.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but in BH when Cotillion is talking to the 3 dragons chained in the Shadow Realm, one of the dragons (Eloth?) said: "After spilling blood in the heart of Kurald Emurlahn! After opening the first, fatal wound upon that warren! What did he think gates were?"

The word "wound" originally struck me there, for did not Veed or Cynnigig or some such person talk about Icarium shattering a wounded warren?

Anyway, i think Bloodeye instigated the Sundering, then Icarium made KE what it is during the series.

Might be i just stated the obvious but whatever.

My two cents.

[Wither]

Great prologue, though I found the "hiding" of Kilmandaros' name during the first section to be a bit clumsy. I think the effect could have been more subtly handled simply by the judiciousl use of pronouns until the last sentence. Still, it's a minor quiblle, and the rest of the tect did it's work exceedingly well - I am teased beyond all restraint, damnit! Give me the book already!!!!

*ahem* . . . sorry.

Speculations:

• I think the Finnest might well have been Icarium's sword, but it's just as likely to be an object not yet seen in the series. There's only so far I'm willing to extend a speculation based upon "drawing" an object into view.
  
  
• The canoe riders are the same folk as the foreign soldiers and are a group of the Perish. The numbers are too large for the Grey swords, and the Perish are obviously an advanced seafaring civilization in BH. Postulating a 3rd organized military force concecrated to T&F seems unlikely, considering how recently they claimed the mantle of War.
  
  
• Red Mask is a native of the Awl'Dan, and not a character that we have met before. But I think I'm going to like him.
  
  
• The two companions are the two Kenryll’ah (Demon Princes) last seen pissing down a hole in search of Serenity. I don't buy the idea that they would be KCCM (long or stubby) just because of the word "talon". "They killed for pleasure, as far as he could tell." seems to describe the Edur's marrow-eating allies to a tee, and I don't doubt that they have taken a liberal definition of their instruction to hunt down the forkrul assail.

Oh, and in closing: Give me the book already!!!!

um . . . sorry . . .

again.

[Mael]

Quote

The two companions are the two Kenryll’ah (Demon Princes) last seen pissing down a hole in search of Serenity. I don't buy the idea that they would be KCCM (long or stubby) just because of the word "talon". "They killed for pleasure, as far as he could tell." seems to describe the Edur's marrow-eating allies to a tee, and I don't doubt that they have taken a liberal definition of their instruction to hunt down the forkrul assail.

I never thought of this. That would be awesome. I really liked those 2 and it would make sense that they would be eager to kill a letherii army.

[Abyss]

Letherii killed plenty of those demons during the war, and the ground didn't shake when they walked. Unless something has happened to upgrade them, i doubt it's them.

- Abyss, wants it to be Kell Hunters for no good reason.