[Thelomen Toblakai]

Right this is my first thread so can people please feel sympathetic when they laugh at my incompetent threading.

Anyway in Bonehunters it says (page 714):
""Forgive me, Adjunct. I am Destriant Run'Thurvian." He gestured to the huge woman beside him. "This is the Mortal Sword Krughava""

So here we can clearly tell that the Mortal Sword is a woman, and we all know they serve Togg and Fanderay.

But at the end og Memories of Ice (pages 1167-1169) it talks of Togg and Fanderays new Mortal Sword, the man previously known as Toc the Younger now in the body of Anaster.

So basically what i want to know is how has the Mortal Sword became a woman? Because I'm sure after all Toc the Younger has been through SE would not just kill him off without telling us.
Or is it possible that because it is Togg and Fanderay - male and female. There will be a male Mortal Sword and a female Mortal Sword.
Any ideas?

[Wry]

Actually i've been wondering about this and it had me stumped untill i remembered that it's togg AND fanderay - Two gods. Remember that they had two high preists on the mask council? Well i'll bet they've two mortal swords, two legions, two everything. Makes sense?

Edit: Sorry i missed the last point you made there, saying exactly what i just did. *duh!* Lets just say i agree with that one then.

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure it's the latter scenario here. After all, there is one male and one female of each rank - Toc and the two female Grey Swords, the Grey Helms with their female MS and male Destriant and SA. Matches two paired gods, don't you think? And you can't honestly say you thought the first of those ideas the more likely.

[Aptorian]

I'm actually wondering if Toc still holds some of the power from when he was Obelisk. There seemed to be some foreshadowing by Tool on that subject. Something about the power of his stone weapons and the third eye thing, he recieved from the sorcerous stone that fell from Moons Spawn.

But of course all these things might simply be concerned him being used to hold the soul of Togg.

[GardenGnome]

Obelisk is Burn, and is for some reason inactive in 7C - anyone know why?

I really look forward to seeing more of Toc - he should be a fairly interesting read, now that he is the MS of the Grey Swords. He just doesn't seem like the type to fit in there.

Can we expect some hot love between the MS of G-Swords and G-Helmets?

[Aptorian]

I'm quite sure that Tool said that he was connected to Obelisk... but now I'm getting unsure. I haven't found the place yet. It's early, around the time toc and tool meet up with the seguleh and envy. Maybe it wasn't Obelisk... maybe he said Orb... there's too damn many pages in MoI

Edit: I found the passage on p. 311

Talking about Toc’s visions:
“How did you loose your eye, Toc the Younger?”
“A sizzling chunck from Moon’s Spawn – that deathly rain when the Enfilade was in full swing.”
“Stone.”
Toc nodded. “Stone.” Then he stopped, looked up.”
“Obelisk,” Tool said. “In the ancient Deck of Holds, it was known as Menhir. Touched by stone, mortal – Chen’re aral lich’fayle – there, on your brow. I give you a new name Aral Fayle.

Now the question is, was he both holding the position as Obelisk and carrier of togg at the same time? I could imagine, if as you say burn is Obelisk ALL the time, that Toc had been chosen, given the power of vision by her.

Or he was supposed to play another role in the gods games, and like mortals often do, he switched things up and ran into the clutches of the Seer instead. Foolish mortals...

@ gardengnome - Where does it say that Obelisk is inactive on Seven Cities? Perhaps it has something to do with the ancient history of 7C, the layers of history. Maybe the K'Chain or The first Empire (of the humans) were naughty and damaged the area. Or maybe Burn just isn't interested in that continent at the moment?!

[Whelp]

@Apt:
Kalam says in Deadhouse Gates that Obelisk is an inactive card in 7c (when he starts as a postman for the Apocalypse).
Imho, Icarium might be a culprit for this, he seems to have wreacked havoc on that continent several times.

[Aptorian]

Still, it's strange that, what could be seen as the very soul of the world, isn't able acces a large chunk of the worlds surface.

[Monoch Ochem]

Well spotted TT. And Wry's point about there being a priests and a priestess on the Masked Council is a good one. I wonder which army belongs to which....it woud seem that, having carried Togg, Toc should belong to him. So Fanderay would claim the Grey Helms.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I would guess it was more the females falling under Fanny's dominion and the males coming under Togg's sway, no?

But I'm not convinced you can split the forces up between Togg & Fanny, the Wolf Gods rule as a pair, as one.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Yeh that was the way i would assume it would happen as well. That Fanderay would take a females as her Mortal Sword, Destriant etc. and Togg males.
So if Fanderays Mortal Sword is in command of the Grey Helms then where is Toc? In charge of some other fighting force in the name of Togg?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, he's in charge of the Grey Swords - last seen on Genebackis recruiting from the Tenescowri. No mystery there.

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Yeh but if you read Quick Bens comments in BH then it says theres clearly similarities between the Grey Helms and the Grey Swords.
And (may just be my interpretation of the book) but i assumed that The Grey Helms were the Grey Swords with a different name and worshiping Togg and Fanderay.

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, the Grey Helms were from the extreme edge of Seven Cities and were "Perish", not sure if that's a race or country.

The Grey Swords were on a different continent (Genebackis), and they retained the same name while switching to Togg & Fanny worship, this was all at the end of MoI - it was Itkovian's plan.

The Grey Helms are not the Grey Swords, and if the Grey Helms really were working on that portal for over two years then they were around pre-Capustan, ie at the same as Fener's Grey Swords.

Though giving the two armies such similar names certainly makes it hard to distinguish, not very original writing there. Even I can do better than "Grey Helms" for the name of an army, especially with the "Grey Swords" already in play.

[Abyss]

Two gods - two sets. It seems clear. I don't think either the GHelms or GSwords swing more one way or the other.

The curious point, however, is that pre-MoI, the GSwords were sworn to Fener.

So i'm wondering were the GHelms also sworn to Fener and made the switch at the same time, or were they always carrying the torch for Togg and Fenderbait (like the Rath priests in Capan) and waiting, and then when T&F adopted the GSwords, things became unexpectedly more complex.

The Helms tell Tavore they've been prepping the ritual for the gate to Malaz for two years. I'm wondering whose power they were channeling during that time. Of course, if they had a High Mage or two, they didn't really need a god for the prep work, even tho' the Beast Hold warren didn't exist yet.

But yeah, two gods, two sets of MS/D/SA.

- Abyss, collect them all!

[Kage-za]

If Tavore gets to be with one of the Grey armies, it would be a nice balance for Paran to get the other one (especially with his friend Toc in charge)? So perhaps Paran and co. are headed for Genabackis?

[Thelomen Toblakai]

Ah. After what you said DM i went back to try and find out about the Destriant and Shield Anvil in the Grey Swords. I re-read it and found that the Destriant for the Grey Swords is a female that i couldnt find the name of, but the Grey Helms Destriant is a man called Run'Thurvian.

The Grey Swords Shield Anvil is a female called Norul and the The Grey Helms Shield Anvil a man called Tanakalian.

So i was wrong about them being the same company because they seem to have different Mortal Swords etc.

The thing is Grey Helms have 2 males and a femal Mortal Sword. And the Grey Swords have 2 females and a male Mortal Sword. I wonder if thats coincidence of something else? But it shows that both Togg and Fanderay must have their own Priests

[Illuyankas]

Dude, did you even read my post? It's exactly what you just wrote.