[GardenGnome]

I think no one here knows. On any of those. However, we can speculate freely.

[Abyss]

The severe hate may only run one way. We didn't see Envy comment on Spite in MoI, iirc. Altho, with names and a pedigree like that, i wouldn't be surprised.

Envy was an active participant in killing their dad, Draconus. Not a great familial bond.

No NO (hee hee, see what i did there) was around to tattle on her... Veed is rather busy, so who knows, maybe she was just happy to be presumed dead.

Yet she DID assist in the freeing Dejim, which makes one wonder whether she was tied to the plan to sic Iccy on Rhulad after all.

Actual motives re: Mappo... good question. Helped attempt to kill him then later helps him. Hmmm... Maybe Dejim wasn't incompetent and she was there to ensure Mappo survived...

- Abyss, feels a theory or three coming on.

[Aptorian]

Abyss said:

The severe hate may only run one way. We didn't see Envy comment on Spite in MoI, iirc. Altho, with names and a pedigree like that, i wouldn't be surprised.

Envy was an active participant in killing their dad, Draconus. Not a great familial bond.

No NO (hee hee, see what i did there) was around to tattle on her... Veed is rather busy, so who knows, maybe she was just happy to be presumed dead.

Yet she DID assist in the freeing Dejim, which makes one wonder whether she was tied to the plan to sic Iccy on Rhulad after all.

Actual motives re: Mappo... good question. Helped attempt to kill him then later helps him. Hmmm... Maybe Dejim wasn't incompetent and she was there to ensure Mappo survived...

- Abyss, feels a theory or three coming on.

A but she wasn't there to help Mappo survive. I Doubt it was because she had traffic problems getting there, her being able to acces warrens and being elient. For all the strength Mappo posses, he would have been dead if it hadn't been for Pust and his wife.

More likely I think she just didn't care about Mappo's surviving or not. It wasn't personal so she didn't mind taking a boattrip with them later on. I don't remember her explaining her involvement in Dejims release so I'm guessing it's gonna get interesting when Mappo learns what she did.

EDIT:
Hmm that said, Spite could just have been a sleeper inside the group of NO. Maybe in alliance with Kru'l or even the CG. Or she can be playing her own games just like ST, but I think she saw a use for Icarium heading into the maw of the Edur.

[PannionDude]

Spite seemed extremely contemptuous of the NO when she was talking to Mappo. Perhaps they were allies of convenience, useful to her up to a point. I don't buy Spite as allied to K'rul though, the whole hating her sister thing doesn't seem like what K'rul's allies would do.

[Abyss]

Hmmm... interesting point here... it's not like the NOs wouldn't have known, at least in part, who she was... Veed didn't seem surprised to see a big frikkin' dragon flying away from Dejim's release.

So the soletaken draconic ascendant daughter of the Elder God who made Dragnipur and a Draconic Tiste Edur ascendant, who is apparently also some sort of High Mage shows up at the local NO Highly Secret Nameless Monthly Meeting and says 'Hi, i'm the soletaken draconic etc. etc. and i really wanna be a Nameless One. My dad made Dragnipur and my mom was Scabby Bloodeye and Tiam's love child. Here's my CV."...

Either she spent some serious time earning trust with the NOs, or they really are morons, because with a family history like THAT...

- Abyss, thinks the NOs need a new HR guy.

[Aptorian]

Well she had what... around a hundred thousand years plus, to ass-kiss her way into the NO. Maybe at some point in the past they allied. Chaining some big nasty, conjuring some mojo, she helped in a temple garagesale. ever since then she's had bonus points with them.

Or: Tayschrenn was able to hide his identity as Arthantos in the midst of Brood, Rake, Corlat, Quick, etc. maybe she used rashan or meanas to hide her true identity. Her sister seemed able to jugle a lot of power, it's not unlikely she can whip up an Illusion to fool even 11 priests and high mages.

EDIT: hmm... I suddenly remember a description of her having scally hands when Dejim is freed, so unless only Dejim could see this... that ruins that theory.

[Wry]

Apt said:

A but she wasn't there to help Mappo survive. I Doubt it was because she had traffic problems getting there, her being able to acces warrens and being elient. For all the strength Mappo posses, he would have been dead if it hadn't been for Pust and his wife.

More likely I think she just didn't care about Mappo's surviving or not. It wasn't personal so she didn't mind taking a boattrip with them later on. I don't remember her explaining her involvement in Dejims release so I'm guessing it's gonna get interesting when Mappo learns what she did.

Did she ever explain why she was with the NO and helping free dejim?

[Aptorian]

Wry said:

Did she ever explain why she was with the NO and helping free Dejim?

I’ve been searching for Mappo/Spite sections.

on p. 517:

Pust and Mappo come upon Spite, a barrage of insults ensue...

Mappo did not move. "What cause have I," he asked, "to ally myself with you?"
"You shall need the knowledge I posses, Mappo Runt, for I was one of the Nameless Ones who freed Dejim Nebrahl, with the aim of slaying you, so that the new Guardian could take you place at Icarium’s side. It may surprise you,” she added, “that I am pleased the Trolbarahl failed in the former task. I am outlawed from the Nameless Ones , a fact that gives me no small amount of satisfaction, if not pleasure. Would you know what the Nameless Ones intend? Would you know Icariums fate?

Then it goes on without more clarification.
Then there’s a lengthy philosophical discussion about war, strife, gods etc between Mappo and Spite on p. 574 through 578, not much is revealed besides that Spite wants Icarium on Lether to lay waste to… things?

On p. 676 spite, talking of convergence:

[“... And you shall be there, for you are part of that convergence. As is Icarium. Just as I will come face to face with my evil sister at the very end, a meeting from which but one of us will walk away when all is done between us.”

This hints of Icarium being needed at the very end, not just for stopping Rhulad. Also it gives a very interesting view of Envy. Is Spite calling her evil just because of her involvement in Draconus death… or is there more? It certainly doesn’t bode well for their reunion.

[Wry]

Ah... so Spite made a temporary alliance with the nameless ones because their ends conincided with hers (or so i read that) i.e. Get Iccarium to lether.

I could well believe Envy being evil (her amazing selfcentredness could easily lead to evil acts) but from her actions so is spite... I think it's just normal sisterly hate (i have two they do that)

[Aptorian]

I'm guessing we'll hear a lot more if the two sisters reach Lether.

on p. 1150 MoI:
"I don't remember you doing much," Anomander Rake was saying, "at the time. You stood by and watched the battle-"
"Precisely! And what did you think my father thought of that?"
The Lord of Moon's Spawn shrugged. "He knew enough not to ask for your help, Envy. ]

So clearly there was some kind fight between Envy and her father long ago, seperating them... as it usually is with godspawn So not so much of a betrayal as an unvillingness to forgive her father's actions or to support her father's intentions.

[Mulch]

Draconus said himself that he was evil when rake killed him.

I think spite and envy are not accidentally named, spite will do spiteful acts and envy will act out of jealousy.

[philospher77]

Mulch said:

Draconus said himself that he was evil when rake killed him.

I think spite and envy are not accidentally named, spite will do spiteful acts and envy will act out of jealousy.

I've always wondered whether those are thier actual names, or did they have some other names and get these as sort of titles? I'm having a hard time picturing any mother naming a baby Spite or Envy. And if they did, then you can't entirely blame the kids for growing up the way that they did.

[Dark Mac]

philospher77 said:

I've always wondered whether those are thier actual names, or did they have some other names and get these as sort of titles? I'm having a hard time picturing any mother naming a baby Spite or Envy. And if they did, then you can't entirely blame the kids for growing up the way that they did.

According to Osric's chat with his daughters, they were born with those names. And their parents are probably worse than they are.

[BridgeBurner]

Slightly off topic, I wonder which of them is the older sister.

For some reason I think that would be Envy...

[BridgeBurner]

potsherds said:

And continuing the off-topic: I vote that Spite is. Its always seems to me that the cliche is that the younger sis is the prissy one.

Care to make a bet for bragging rights?

I wonder when and where they will meet though, with Envy heading for the Seguleh island, and Spite probably going to Lether...

[Dark Mac]

Indeed, it does seem to me that Envy is older. She just seems more...developed to me. Spite is just lashing out at the world, but Envy knows what she wants, and knows who she is.

[Wry]

I think Spite is... Envy just seems spoiled, spite is controlled in her evil. Besides isn't it always the younger sis is envious of the older?