Help
Ok, the Nameless Ones, in their infinite wisdom, decide to unleash an old-time nasty to kill... Mappo. The person that they had appointed to take care of Icarium. The good, honest, noble, decent person that they had appointed. The person who would, based on everything I have seen of him, have stepped aside as Icarium's companion if they had given him a half-way decent reason for doing so. Sure, it might have taken a little subterfuge, in order to activate Icarium's amnesia, but it's not an impossible situation to set up. Am I missing something here?
T'rolbarahl question (possible spoiler)
#1
philospher77 
- Captain
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 09-July 06
Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:37 PM
#2
Dolorous Menhir
- God
-
- Group: Wiki Contributor
- Posts: 4,550
- Joined: 31-January 06
Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:39 PM
Yes. Mappo is no longer the Nameless Ones' man. If they asked him to do something that he did not think was best for Icarium - like, for example, surrender to the Azath or fight Rhulad - he would not let it happen.
Mappo's loyalties may have lain with the NO's in the beginning, but it's clear he is Icarium's friend by now, and nothing will come in the way of that (even the welfare of the world, as we saw in DG when he refused to let Icarium enter the Azath, when even Icarium wished for that).
edit: And there's no need for spoiler warnings - this is the forum for people who have already read BH.
Mappo's loyalties may have lain with the NO's in the beginning, but it's clear he is Icarium's friend by now, and nothing will come in the way of that (even the welfare of the world, as we saw in DG when he refused to let Icarium enter the Azath, when even Icarium wished for that).
edit: And there's no need for spoiler warnings - this is the forum for people who have already read BH.
#3
philospher77
- Captain
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 09-July 06
Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:47 PM
It still seems like a bit of overkill to me. First, the Nameless Ones might have been able to convince Mappo that leaving would be in Icarium's best interests. Secondly... even if they can't do that, was the T'rolbarahl necessary? Mappo's good, but he's no Icarium, Karsa, or Trull. Although they may have figured that they needed something to keep Icarium occupied, given what happens when his companions get offed.
#4
Dolorous Menhir
- God
-
- Group: Wiki Contributor
- Posts: 4,550
- Joined: 31-January 06
Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:50 PM
Well, Shadowthrone calls them the Nameless Idiots for a reason.
Plus I think the reader underestimates Mappo.
Plus I think the reader underestimates Mappo.
#5
Wry
- High Fist
-
- Group: Mezla's Thought Police
- Posts: 492
- Joined: 02-July 06
- Location:Dublin
Posted 09 July 2006 - 11:44 PM
The nameless ones dont seem to go in for reasoning gently to achieve their ends. And remember they're concerned with neutralising powerful beings (or using them to neutralise each other), and it has been hinted a few times that Mappo runt is alot less insignificant a power as he was centuries ago. Makes sense that they'd try to take him out first.
“Arm yourself, Watson, there is an evil hand afoot ahead"
#7 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:48 AM
Everyone seems to be underestimating the feelings that Mappo has for Icarium... He follows him round, not to protect others from him, but to protect him from himself. For the long long time that they have been together, Mappo's feelings for Icarium are that of his brotherhood. Imagine having only one companion for such a long period of time, sharing through the hardships and troubles that arise. Even if Icarium does not remember, Mappo does.
Further to this point he has seen the good that is Icarium. His noble side, even if this does eventually lead to him unleashing his anger when he tries to fight for this noble or just cause. Mappo has seen all this and perhaps his endless quest, and dream, is to free Icarium of his rage and still have his friend around- not eternally tormented in an Azath. This is a dream that may now be realised thanks to ST and Cot. Mappo reminds me of Trull Sengar in that they are both creatures of great empathy- this is why the Nameless Ones had to resort to such drastic measures to remove Mappo.
Firstly, he would not listen to them anymore since he realised that they wiped out his whole village. This is the main reason. I mean, who is going to listen to lying, manipulating people who believe that their path is always right, no matter the consequence. For the NO's it was a matter of whether this was the right thing to do, it was a matter of whether this would achieve the outcome that they wanted. Always remember, they show as much concern for human life as Kallor does- they want to achieve their goals, whatever they are. Thats why releasing the demon wasn't overkill. Mappo wasn't going to listen, he was going to stand in the way of their plans. So they attempt to kill him. Its as simple as that.
Further to this point he has seen the good that is Icarium. His noble side, even if this does eventually lead to him unleashing his anger when he tries to fight for this noble or just cause. Mappo has seen all this and perhaps his endless quest, and dream, is to free Icarium of his rage and still have his friend around- not eternally tormented in an Azath. This is a dream that may now be realised thanks to ST and Cot. Mappo reminds me of Trull Sengar in that they are both creatures of great empathy- this is why the Nameless Ones had to resort to such drastic measures to remove Mappo.
Firstly, he would not listen to them anymore since he realised that they wiped out his whole village. This is the main reason. I mean, who is going to listen to lying, manipulating people who believe that their path is always right, no matter the consequence. For the NO's it was a matter of whether this was the right thing to do, it was a matter of whether this would achieve the outcome that they wanted. Always remember, they show as much concern for human life as Kallor does- they want to achieve their goals, whatever they are. Thats why releasing the demon wasn't overkill. Mappo wasn't going to listen, he was going to stand in the way of their plans. So they attempt to kill him. Its as simple as that.
#8 Guest_TheEdgewalker_*
Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:00 PM
I have a problem with this whole deal:
Paran awakens the Deragoth, one of the most feared ascendants in the books, in order to track down and kill the T'rolbarahl. What a waste. Apparently, some random soldier from the 14th armed with nothing but a knife who had not eaten for days can kill the T'rolbarahl rather handily. I assume 1 squad can annihilite the entire D'ivers. So, did SE underwrite the T'rolbarahl, or did Paran overreact to its (nonexistent) threat?
Paran awakens the Deragoth, one of the most feared ascendants in the books, in order to track down and kill the T'rolbarahl. What a waste. Apparently, some random soldier from the 14th armed with nothing but a knife who had not eaten for days can kill the T'rolbarahl rather handily. I assume 1 squad can annihilite the entire D'ivers. So, did SE underwrite the T'rolbarahl, or did Paran overreact to its (nonexistent) threat?
#9
GardenGnome
- Emperor
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 947
- Joined: 31-May 06
Posted 10 July 2006 - 01:58 PM
So many threads exist about why the T'rolbarahl died so easily, go search it.
In short, the T'rolbarahl could've become insanely powerful, if it had been allowed to kill (and thus gain blood -> power). However, his memory of the land is very old, and he visited all the old cities, which are now abandoned and in ruin - thus, he didn't get any food (Ok, I can't remember this exact part myself, but I do believe someone else explained it this way). In addition, he kept running into powerful beings who chipped away one piece after another.
In short, the T'rolbarahl could've become insanely powerful, if it had been allowed to kill (and thus gain blood -> power). However, his memory of the land is very old, and he visited all the old cities, which are now abandoned and in ruin - thus, he didn't get any food (Ok, I can't remember this exact part myself, but I do believe someone else explained it this way). In addition, he kept running into powerful beings who chipped away one piece after another.
#10 Guest_TheEdgewalker_*
Posted 11 July 2006 - 12:12 AM
I understand why it died so easily, it was explained in the book. What I don't understand is if SE made a mistake by making it so, or if Paran overestimated his foe.
#11 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:47 AM
IMHO, no and no to both questions.
SE made no mistake. The creature needed blood to feed and didn't recieve any... naturally, if the power source of the creature is denied then it is not going to be very strong.
Paran didn't overestimate... the potential for the demon was very very very high. Had it reached the power that it did- and it could have if it found people, then it would have taken the Deragoth to stop it. Paran didn't know whether it would or would not reach that potential, the only thing he knew was that a greatly powerful creature was loose and needed to be stopped. He chooses the one thing that he has known to beat the demon on a prior occasion, the Deragoth.
So it wasn't an overestimation by Paran, it was an informed decision based on his understanding of the creatures potential. SE made no mistake. The creature was powerful, but only if it got the necessary blood. As it was, it was weak and had too fight too many battles. The blood it needed, it did not recieve.
SE made no mistake. The creature needed blood to feed and didn't recieve any... naturally, if the power source of the creature is denied then it is not going to be very strong.
Paran didn't overestimate... the potential for the demon was very very very high. Had it reached the power that it did- and it could have if it found people, then it would have taken the Deragoth to stop it. Paran didn't know whether it would or would not reach that potential, the only thing he knew was that a greatly powerful creature was loose and needed to be stopped. He chooses the one thing that he has known to beat the demon on a prior occasion, the Deragoth.
So it wasn't an overestimation by Paran, it was an informed decision based on his understanding of the creatures potential. SE made no mistake. The creature was powerful, but only if it got the necessary blood. As it was, it was weak and had too fight too many battles. The blood it needed, it did not recieve.
#12
buddhacat
- Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 05-March 05
- Location:Silicon Valley
Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:06 AM
It really bothered me that Paran did not know that two Hounds of Darkness had been released in Seven Cities, and subsequently killed. He does not seem to have any idea of Karsa's existence. I don't see how that is possible, given that he'd been "studying the players" for months, and Karsa is the Crippled God's Knight.
Buddhacat
#13
jayisspecial
- Recruit
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 27
- Joined: 01-September 05
Posted 11 July 2006 - 04:37 AM
Paran admits that he underestimated the ascendents present in the world. Releasing the Hounds was overkill when people like Rake are around, so he could have just worked on one of those powers rather than wakening something as insanely powerful as the Hounds.
Also, Mappo should not be underestimated. He has been made into a walking tank by the nameless ones. He is huge and his skin is like armor. Karsa outsmarted a bedhurin bull and killed it with his sword.. Mappo admits he could wrestle one. That's badass.
Also, Mappo should not be underestimated. He has been made into a walking tank by the nameless ones. He is huge and his skin is like armor. Karsa outsmarted a bedhurin bull and killed it with his sword.. Mappo admits he could wrestle one. That's badass.
#14
Tiger_sword
- First Sword
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 582
- Joined: 17-November 04
- Location:England
Posted 11 July 2006 - 08:19 AM
Paran also admits to a bit of overkill on the part of releasing the Degorath but he realises time is short and there is no one else (turns out all he really needed was the normal HoS!). It was a bit rash but you never know it could have far greater effects like what will they do once they have caught their shadows?
#15
bwgan
- OFFICIAL Keeper of Shiny Things of the Abyssmal Army
-
- Group: The Abyssmal Army
- Posts: 310
- Joined: 11-December 05
- Location:Valleys - where to are you at by?
Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:18 PM
And that's part of why I love SE's books. There are no 'perfect' characters...they make good old honest to goodness mistakes...like we all do!
'Tell me, Tool, what dominates your thoughts?'
The Imass shrugged before replying. 'I think of Mafia, Adjunct.'
'Do all Imass think about Mafia?'
'No. Few think at all.'
'Why is that?'
The Imass leaned his head to one side and regarded her. 'Because, Adjunct, they are sheeple.'
Sometimes I wonder, "Why is that frisbee getting bigger?" ... and then it hits me.
The Imass shrugged before replying. 'I think of Mafia, Adjunct.'
'Do all Imass think about Mafia?'
'No. Few think at all.'
'Why is that?'
The Imass leaned his head to one side and regarded her. 'Because, Adjunct, they are sheeple.'
Sometimes I wonder, "Why is that frisbee getting bigger?" ... and then it hits me.
#16
Abyss
- abyssus abyssum invocat
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 22,461
- Joined: 22-May 03
- Location:The call is coming from inside the house!!!!
- Interests:Interesting.
Posted 11 July 2006 - 06:44 PM
Also, underestimating Mappo aside, the NOs needed someone powerful enough to hit Iccy hard enough for his brain to hit the reset button so Veed could step in, AND take out Mappo so they could put a new keeper in place and target Rhulad.
In theory, but for the weakness of the geas, that forbade killing Iccy and let him wander off once Mappo was apparently dead, Dejim could have killed Mappo and Iccy at that time. Or Iccy would have gone all keening shredder crazy. Tough call.
As for Paran, it may have been overkill, but who's to say the NO were not counting on some ascendant stepping in before Dejim got too powerful, and Paran just happened to be the first one to step up, while others, like Rake, for example, would have waited until they came into direct conflict with the lizard-cat-thingies. Hound-form notwithstanding, Paran is not as directly powerful as some, so he has to act through intermediaries and situations. (heck, even in his Hound form, the demon turkey vulture in MoI tore him up prety bad).
Imnsho, more than anything else, it was Masari's fight with Dejim that damaged his street cred. If she had just damaged him and got away, ok fine. Instead she kills one body and seriously damages another, at which point we actually had to process the thought that yes, he was REALLY weak from the hungry.
- Abyss, is all about the street cred, man.
In theory, but for the weakness of the geas, that forbade killing Iccy and let him wander off once Mappo was apparently dead, Dejim could have killed Mappo and Iccy at that time. Or Iccy would have gone all keening shredder crazy. Tough call.
As for Paran, it may have been overkill, but who's to say the NO were not counting on some ascendant stepping in before Dejim got too powerful, and Paran just happened to be the first one to step up, while others, like Rake, for example, would have waited until they came into direct conflict with the lizard-cat-thingies. Hound-form notwithstanding, Paran is not as directly powerful as some, so he has to act through intermediaries and situations. (heck, even in his Hound form, the demon turkey vulture in MoI tore him up prety bad).
Imnsho, more than anything else, it was Masari's fight with Dejim that damaged his street cred. If she had just damaged him and got away, ok fine. Instead she kills one body and seriously damages another, at which point we actually had to process the thought that yes, he was REALLY weak from the hungry.
- Abyss, is all about the street cred, man.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#17
Obdigore
- ThunderBear
-
- Group: High House Mafia
- Posts: 6,165
- Joined: 22-June 06
Posted 11 July 2006 - 09:58 PM
Mappo killed... 3 i think. (thought he broke ones neck, pushed another one into a wall fataly, and fell with the other, with mappo on top. 2 or 3. Pust the most rediculous magician ever damaged all the rest. They have had no food. They are exhausted, and at that point, were they not running from the hounds of darkness? They could not stop and finish her off (which they certainly could have, had they had the time.).
Monster Hunter World Iceborne: It's like hunting monsters, but on crack, but the monsters are also on crack.
#18
Aptorian
- How 'bout a hug?
-
- Group: The Wheelchairs of War
- Posts: 24,785
- Joined: 22-May 06
Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:02 PM
People keep saying that they hadn't fed. This is wrong. There's an early passage where it's described that Dejim has reached his position and that his bellies are filled with blood. He says something along the line of there haven been plenty of people to feed on, on his way.
I can't be bottered to write the passage at this hour, but I'll post in the morning.
I can't be bottered to write the passage at this hour, but I'll post in the morning.
#19
Illuyankas
- Retro Classic
-
- Group: The Hateocracy of Truth
- Posts: 7,254
- Joined: 28-September 04
- Will cluck you up
Posted 11 July 2006 - 10:41 PM
Yes, before fighting Icarium. After that, he gets three dogs and a horse. So he might be a tad peckish.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#20
Tiger_sword
- First Sword
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 582
- Joined: 17-November 04
- Location:England
Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:33 AM
Yeah he finds those other travellers doesn't he but as he attacks Pust takes him out.
