[fan_83]

yes i know... but the fact is that the other authors didn;t go down tolkien's route for a reason... tolkien left enough notes behind to be published in books where as the other writers didn;t publish any of their notes.. why ?
i mean its a book that only needs editing and their publisher will be happy to do it for the extra money..

so even though its not a complete work, any other author who did as much world building as tolkien should have enough notes to be published in books.
the only reason they didn;t is the lack of notes

[Aimless]

If there's a following, they will get published in some form. Jordan's got it, Herbert's got it, Pratchett's got it, and Erikson will have it.

[polishgenius]

fan_83 said:

yes i know... but the fact is that the other authors didn;t go down tolkien's route for a reason... tolkien left enough notes behind to be published in books where as the other writers didn;t publish any of their notes.. why ?
i mean its a book that only needs editing and their publisher will be happy to do it for the extra money..

so even though its not a complete work, any other author who did as much world building as tolkien should have enough notes to be published in books.
the only reason they didn;t is the lack of notes

Or, they haven't given the notes to the publisher. Maybe they don't want to, maybe they just haven't got round to it yet. Bear in mind that Tolkien was dead when his were published, apart from the Silmallirion they weren't really intended to be, his son did it for money. And his book has been around for faaaaaaaaaaaaaar longer than most of the ones we're comparing with it.

We know an Encyclopedia Malazica is planned, for example. It just hasn't been done yet.

Quote

the only reason they didn;t is the lack of notes

Or perhaps they didn't want to. This is quite possible, why can't you accept that?

[Werthead]

R. Scott Bakker published some of his notes (in the form of a 100-page appendix) at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. Impressive stuff.

George RR Martin has been far more decentralised in spreading his worldbuilding details, with lots of stuff in the books and appendices, other stuff in the RPG, other details in the portrait notes he sends to the artist Amok, even some revelations that have crept out through the card game. When assembled, they do reveal an absolute ton of information on his world and particularly the history.

Robert Jordan had a whole 330-page, large-format hardcover book published detailing his world, plus more details emerged in the WoT RPG and adventure book. Jordan is also notable as the only other epic fantasy writer who has actually created his own language. It's not as developed (or as convincing, frankly) as Tolkien's, but the ambition was there.

Terry Pratchett has had four editions of an encyclopedia and three large-format map books published about the Discworld.

Peter F. Hamilton released a 200-page hardcover book about the background to his mighty Night's Dawn Trilogy.

So lots of writers have let huge amounts of stuff slip out about their worldbuilding. Tolkien was not alone in that regard.

[Tom]

An attempt to get back on topic.

The three 'Tiste' races, Andii, Edur and Liosan most resemble Feist's elves, in terms of their structure - the moredhel (dark elves), the 'normal' elves and the Eldar. I may have mixed up the names... but their attitudes are very different. The Andii are depressed, the Edur are human, the Liosan are proud and arrogant.

The Trell seem to have similarities to dwarves of any fantasy you care to name.

The Teblor / Thelomen Toblokai are clearly giants, reinvented and given a glossy finish. I love how we only learn that they're giants when they go to kill the children... There's never really been any proper mythology for giants, as far as I know, so his slant is very original.

The Tlan Imass bear great resemblance to the undead from The Return of the King - kept alive by a vow, anyone? Though in the case of LOTR it was a broken vow... but still. Meanwhile in appearance, they're just your average zombie renevants - though unlike most fantasy, the Imass carry echoes of the lives they once lived.

The Jaghut seem to have no race similar to them. Their powers, their attitude, their reactions to things, their way of life - they seem completely original to me. Interestingly, the Tyrants are reminiscent of the Edenist Serpents from Peter Hamilton's novels - a rare being that is nonetheless incredibly powerful. The comparision is there.

The Forkrul Assail - We don't really know enough of them to say, in appearance they're your standard fantasy monster number *whatever*, but we know little of their motives, way of life, culture, etc.

The KCCM... can't be bothered typing that beautiful name. They also appear to be original... matriachal society, espeically with the Kell Hunters makes them hard to place. Probably mostly original.

Dragons - as has already been covered. Your bog standard firebreathing nasty, but made nasty through some powerful magic. Tolkien and many others have described them better, but Erikson's dragons work fine to do what they're supposed to do - which is sound cool when you read about them.

OT:
Someone mentioned earlier in the history thread that the universe was created by Mother Dark... I though it was the Errant? There was nothing and then he came and made fire, and then the Holds, progressively... Someone talks of the evolution of the Holds-Warrens in Memories of Ice (I think).

[Valgard]

@Tom I disagree with the Trell are similar to dwarves they always struck me as much closer to orcs/ogres especially if you have read Bonehunters as they get more exposition there.

The Thelomen Toblakai I agree are giants. The teblor again are closer to trolls (the original norse trolls not the D&D trolls). Also for giant mythologies just look at norse myths where giants are the evil that will destroy the world. That is where nearly all giant myth has derived from and it is very interesting to red.

The Imass i disagree that they are like the undead in Return of the king as eventhough both are kept alive by a vow one broke their word and so was cursed. The other deliberately chose this vow so they could continue their war across millennia and now must suffer for their folly. Other that the vow there is no comparison between the two the Imass have far more to them that we can see. Also they are definately not like zombie revenants in appearence they are far more mobile moving faster than normal people. They are more like incan mummies. dried and desicated flesh stretched over bone also the ability to turn to dust is new.

Also I think that Mother dark is the black hole at the centre of the galaxy as there is a part of MT that says that she si surrounded by little pricks of light that will slowly fall into her at the end of all. Mother dark came first followed by light then shadow. The Errant created the world Wu I believe.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

In the Imass, I see some echoes of the Bloodguard from Donaldson. They have a cause they believe in so strongly thay are willing to give up death, family, sleep, and any smeblance of the life they knew before to acconplish the vow. Actually, their vows are the only similarity, so I guess I should say the vows are similar, not the people.

[Illuyankas]

*coughCrimsonGuardcough*

[Aneirin]

Illuyankas said:

*coughCrimsonGuardcough*

Yes, these are analogous to the Bloodguard to a *much* greater degree than the Imass. I actually tend to think that the T'lan Imass are quite unique.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

coughyou'rerightaboutthecrimsonguardcough. Is there more about the crimson guard in the novellas, which I haven't read yet? I've gotten the impression I've missed part of their story, either because I missed it or haven't gotten to it yet. I also agree that the T'lan Imass are unique, but their vow really isn't. Bloodguard, crimson guard, undead warriors in Tolkien, there are others who have made mortality-defying vows. I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of right now too.

[Werthead]

No, you learn a bit more about the Crimson Guard in Midnight Tides but the full information will have to wait for ICE's Return of the Crimson Guard.

[Werthead]

Giant warrior pandas that fire lasers from their eyes!

Armour-plated exploding penguins!

Shapeshifting killer chickens! Wait, someone's done that one.

[polishgenius]

I don't think you need 'insteads', because all you'd be doing then is making analogous races.
Take His Dark Materials for example - Mulefa, the Bears, even the Witches, not similar to anything of the archetypical fantasy races.
Or Mieville (hehe - do I sound obsessed?) - Khepri, Cactacae, Anophelii, Weavers . Though he does have Vampires at one point. And a lot of them are drawn from various mythologies, very vaguely.

But then, Pratchett, Feist, and the like have made very good adaptations of the archetypes (though Pratchett set out with the aim of making dwarves and trolls that work, and Feist is a little embarassed about the Elves. But I like his dwarves).

Oh, and I want giant warrior lemmings.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I don't have any specific races I want to see, I just don't want to see the old ones anymore. That's what's so great about SE, all these new creatures running around. You could argue they are based on the "classic" races, which in some cases there probably is some influence, but he took the time to create new races. Nowhere else will you run into a Jughut, Imass, K'Chain Che'malle (or however you spell it, don't feel like looking it up right now.)

[Tom]

A jughut? Would that be a hut made of jugs? I don't think I've ever read about one of those before...

Anways. The whole thing of using fantasy races is to do it originally, put your own slant on them. Do something someone hasn't done before, twist the creations that you've been given or flesh out detail you felt was lacking in the novels you've read.

And please, for the sake of us all, no more flipping elveshalf elves!

Edit: Pratchett's sterotypical races are the best - a comedy author puts a great many of these other serious writers to shame.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Tom said:

A jughut? Would that be a hut made of jugs? I don't think I've ever read about one of those before...

Oops. You make one typo....Actually jughuts are a race in the new fantasy book I'm writing. They are tall, have too many joints, tusks, and are adept at ice magic. And they are mortal enemies of a race of undead warriors. HOw's that for an original idea for a fantasy race? Obviously, that was a joke, but it makes me wonder how a modern author can take themselves seriously as they start writing about an elf.

[Tom]

It has to be admitted, elves absolutely suck ass. I've written fantasy stories of my own (haven't we all ) And I've used orcs, trolls, vampyres, zombies, elementals, angels and demons, giant snakes, werebeasts of all shapes and sizes, as well as a few of my own creations - and of course, dragons... but only once did I mention elves. They were in two scenes, had some nift flying cities and were evil. That was it. One of the characters a wrote about even said, 'not another ****ing elf...'