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Yeah, I didn't think so. Not every new character has to be an old one with a different name. Edgewalker may be something more important, something that's been referenced earlier in the books, but I doubt he's a new manifestation of a character we've already seen first hand (ie Scabby or Draconus).
And I've been thinking about it some more, why would Draconus make Shadow his escape route? He seems to be the most-Dragon related of the EG's, and had nothing at all to do with Shadow that we know of. His sword was concerned with Dark. It just doesn't fit, really.
Where is Scabandari Bloodeye?
#21
Dolorous Menhir 
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:02 PM
#22
Morgoth
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:25 PM
because perhaps that Shadow's aspect made such a transition possible.
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#23
Jheral
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Posted 08 July 2006 - 09:11 AM
Or maybe the warren within the sword is a fragment of emuhrlan? 
Seriously though, I can't see any reason why Draconus should be connected to Edgewalker. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to read NoK, but from what I've read here in the forums, he's mentioned in it. Could someone who has read it tell me what it says?
Seriously though, I can't see any reason why Draconus should be connected to Edgewalker. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to read NoK, but from what I've read here in the forums, he's mentioned in it. Could someone who has read it tell me what it says?
#25
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 08 July 2006 - 10:28 AM
It occured to me that I should quote the relevant passage here. HoC p 438:
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
#26 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 11 July 2006 - 02:36 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
It occured to me that I should quote the relevant passage here. HoC p 438:
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
See for me, that in no way even hints that the person trapped is Scabby. I have two problems with the theory.
The first is that if Scabby could just be awakened by the presence of life nearby, then he is not really bound very well and in eternal torment as was described. Eternal torment to me means that you shouldn't be able to sense- and awaken- when someone is near you. You should be nearly insensate with pain and oblivious to all that is around you.
The second problem is that there is no evidence for it. The only evidence is that it is a 'he'. What would Scabandari be doing on Drift Avail when he died somewhere else completely? Sure, he could have been moved- but for what purpose. We know he died when his skull was knocked in, and we know that his body is on the Edur continent. What connection is this to Drift Avail. It is purely speculation at this point that he is there. Whats to stop the presence from being something like the ruler of the first empire... Dassemblakis (spelling is probly off, I cant find it in Bonehunters and thats the only copy I have with me) Or any other hosts of beings that we have yet to meet? What is the proof that it is Scabandari?
Back to my original argument...
Dolorous Menhir said:
Nightchill tells Paran that Draconus has been cut off from the outside for the duration of his imprisonment, and that his few words to Paran have been the only time he was able to influence the outside world (but then how can he contact Nightchill?). That rules out EW=Draconus as far as I'm concerned.
Okay, so far I haven't suggested that Edgewalker is theDraconus who is trapped in the sword. All this talk of shadows whenever a conversation has arisen has led me to consider that Edgewalker is the shadow of Draconus... the same person but acting different of each other. Im not quite sure why I'm considering this, but the talk of shadows seems so very important to the storyline...
Firstly, Edgewalker's knowledge and association with Dragons seems very strong. He knows the names of the Dragons imprisoned in Shadow and why they were imprisoned- which suggest again, intimate knowledge. He tells stories to Panek about the dragons as well.
TBH Page 618:
'The dragons. The foolish ones, the wise ones, the living ones and the dead ones...'
So intimate knowledge of Dragons suggests a close association with them... What throws me is the next lines:
'They all cast shadows, Uncle,' Panek said. 'Into you realm. Every one of them. Thats why there's so many... prisoners.'
So this is the line that gets me. Again, in close proximity to Edgewalker is the discussion of shadows... and the hesitation on the word prisoners seems to indicate some importance. Does anyone have any clues as to the discussion of shadows? The way that it affects Cotillion suggests that it is very important.
Dolorous Menhir said:
But if the theory that becoming EW was Draconus' way of avoiding his future imprisonment in Dragnipur is true, then you can't extend that to the dragons. Only he would get the special treatment, the ability to manifest in Shadow, not others imprisoned in the sword. Plus I think the three dragons were actually chained there, in Shadow, they were not shadows of themselves.
Why would you chain creatures who are vying for control of Shadow within that warren? Its like locking a thief in your house and hoping that he won't be able to get out...
Dolorous Menhir said:
Also, I think Draconus would've thought of a better get out clause than trapping himself in Shadow for the duration, a realm and aspect he has no other known association with.
On this point, I am not sure that Draconus had any intention of being slain. But then again, perhaps he realised that he would be slain by the sword that he was creating- wasn't that Kallor's curse? To me, Draconus is too smart to allow himself to be so completely taken out of the game especially when he knew it was going to happen... Something doesn't fit when you consider that he had prior knowledge of his impending doom. Surely he would have found a way to circumvent the problems associated with Dragnipur. Perhaps Edgewalker is his way out.
So far, nobodies really provided much evidence to refute this, or discussed the idea of 'shadows'... do I need to make a seperate thread
#27
QuickBenDelat
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Posted 11 July 2006 - 05:26 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
It occured to me that I should quote the relevant passage here. HoC p 438:
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
"The Daru pushed himself to his feet. His clothing was almost dry. 'You possess unusual gifts,' he observed. 'I am named...Cutter.'
'You may call me Darist. We must not delay. The very presence of life in this place risks his awakening.'
The ancient Tiste Andii turned to face the stone wall. At a gesture, a doorway appeared, beyond which were stone stairs leading upward. 'That which survived the wrecking of your craft awaits you above, Cutter. Come.'
The Daru set off after the man. 'Awakening? Who might awaken?'
Darist did not reply..."
While I was reading this, i was dumbfounded!!
It is so abvious!! The presence that is present is Father Light! We know that Tiste Andii hate the LIGHT so is it not possible that they imprisoned him there? Also we have the 2nd/3rd child of Mother dark protecting it.
A side note, It seems as the Andarist is scared of the 'presence' awakeining or at least thats what i got from it
#28
madala
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 07:22 PM
@Dolorous
A very cogent summary and presentation. Isn't there also a reasonable case for Scabby being imprisoned on the moon? I seem to recall some lines to that effect from MT? Then maybe Fear did free Scabby, hence the deteriorationj of the moon in BH. Or was that just an optical illusion caused by intervening Jage Giants ( or pieces thereof)?
A very cogent summary and presentation. Isn't there also a reasonable case for Scabby being imprisoned on the moon? I seem to recall some lines to that effect from MT? Then maybe Fear did free Scabby, hence the deteriorationj of the moon in BH. Or was that just an optical illusion caused by intervening Jage Giants ( or pieces thereof)?
#29
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:02 PM
Firstly... can someone give me a good reason why anyone would imprison Scabandari next to his seat of power? because I can't think of a good one at the moment... but it is late.
Secondly... to repeat Hume's statement... Draconus is not Edgewalker
Secondly... to repeat Hume's statement... Draconus is not Edgewalker
#30
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:13 PM
Well, the reason I gave in the original post was to allow the Tiste Andii to guard both at the same time. Sort of a two birds with one stone deal. It means you only have to defend one site from potential Edur attacks. Especially if you consider the level of protection afforded to Drift Avalii - a brother, and many immediate descendants of, Rake himself. Even if they proved useless at the end, I don't think the Tiste Andii could feasibly have two such forces in play at once.
Also, if Drift Avalii is a KCCM artefact, and so likely to be near to the occurences of the MT prologue, then perhaps it offered the most convenient place to locate the Shadow Throne and Scabby's soul at the time of Scabby's execution.
These are tenuous reasons, but I still think Scabandari is the most likely candidate to be the presence, regardless. Don't think it's Father Light, since I would group him with Mother Dark as a non-character.
By which I mean they are not entities in the sense of normal characters, with bodies and dialogue. I seriously doubt anyone will be talking to either in the series, they are more concepts or primal forces (the Edur legends suggest MD is a Black Hole, perhaps you could extend that FL being a White Dwarf, or even a White Hole).
Also, if Drift Avalii is a KCCM artefact, and so likely to be near to the occurences of the MT prologue, then perhaps it offered the most convenient place to locate the Shadow Throne and Scabby's soul at the time of Scabby's execution.
These are tenuous reasons, but I still think Scabandari is the most likely candidate to be the presence, regardless. Don't think it's Father Light, since I would group him with Mother Dark as a non-character.
By which I mean they are not entities in the sense of normal characters, with bodies and dialogue. I seriously doubt anyone will be talking to either in the series, they are more concepts or primal forces (the Edur legends suggest MD is a Black Hole, perhaps you could extend that FL being a White Dwarf, or even a White Hole).
#31
Illuyankas
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:34 PM
Besides, you need a body to sit on a throne, and Scabby is kind of lacking one at the moment.
And why can't FL be the sun?
And why can't FL be the sun?
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#32
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:45 PM
The Sun!!! I'm actually angry at myself for not thinking of that. Great idea.
#33 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 14 July 2006 - 01:18 AM
Because their is lots of suns across the universe... Does that means there is lots of Father Lights?
#34
Illuyankas
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 01:23 AM
Or they're all the same FL, just facets of one overarching Father Light, just as MD could be all the darkness in the universe...
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#36
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 07:30 AM
Dolorous Menhir said:
Also, if Drift Avalii is a KCCM artefact, and so likely to be near to the occurences of the MT prologue, then perhaps it offered the most convenient place to locate the Shadow Throne and Scabby's soul at the time of Scabby's execution.
It is the Hold of Shadow. There's no reason why it couldn't have ended up trapped inside a fragment of a keep I suppose... as we've seen in BH bits of the realm ended up everywhere.
Although Drift Avalii doesn't really drift as Pearl pointed out.... and it's a long way from the Edur lands where Scabs body lies.
#37
Morgoth
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 10:11 AM
though it is not impossible that is not always thus.. As the movement of drift avlii seems to an extent controled, it might once have been located at a completly different place in the world..
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#38 Guest_Stieglitz_*
Posted 14 July 2006 - 11:09 AM
I do not have my books with me to look this up, but what about this rock in MT? It seemed to have some kind of consciousness. I do not remember who it was, but someone who touched the rock felt somekind of heat. Could it be that Scabbandari's is in that rock?
#39
Illuyankas
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 03:45 PM
The one Seren touched with the Andii spirits in? I think that one's more Darkness than Shadow, but thanks for the reminder about that.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
