Who crusefied T'iam?

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Who crusefied T'iam?

#1 frank

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 01:46 PM

Otataral heals the body. Karsa heals because of it and so does and someone in Bonehunters didn't need healing because of it. I think it was the adjunkt after returning to the 14th at the end.

So T'aim is reborn every time she dies and is a dragon. Ergo, T'iam is the otataral dragon. Did the Elient put her there to keep her from making more mixed bloods?

Thoghts please...

#2 Demon X

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 01:58 PM

That's exactly what I would have thought. If she is the first dragon - and I'm not too sure, then is she Mother Dark or even the mother of mother dark? That's if Mother Dark is a dragon. it seems that way in Baruks family tree.

But when I think about it - maybe the dragons didnt chain her, but Rake and others like him did in order to drink so much of her blood!

It's all very confusing! lol

#3 Morgoth

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 02:15 PM

One, Baruk's fam tree is one of three, and so not entirely accurate. Pallor even confessed to doing some small alterations just to confuse us. Furthermore, I think MD is place on that map purely for the reason that all originated from her.

Tiam and MD might ofc be the same, though I doubt it. MD I think, will never appear in the flesh, and there are nothing in the book that would qualify as proof of her ever being seen in the flesh. Tiam on the other hand obviously appear in the flesh..

Twin chambers could ofc imply them being co-creators so to speak, though I am fairly convinced that MD is the begining of all as she will eventually be the end.. The kind of symethry all authors seem to love.

Back to the otataral question. It is ofc possible that tiam is the OD, it has been suggested in the past an has some merrit. The idea of her otataral aspect being the source of her regenerative powers though I believe is a fairly original one. It is ofc possible. The impression i've gotten from the books however, seem more to suggest that Tiam is in fact dead, and not just imprisoned. At the same time, is it ever said that the OD is still alive?

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#4 Hume

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 02:24 PM

@ morgoth

yeh pearl comments to lostara as they leave the area on something like "You know she is still alive" something along those lines..

#5 Dolorous Menhir

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 02:40 PM

Drinking the blood of the O-Dragon would leave some trace of Otataral influence on the drinker, no?

None of the Soletaken Eleint appear tainted by Otataral, they are the most magical beings in the books.

#6 PannionDude

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 02:41 PM

But isn't their magic Elder, which isn't affected by Onataral?

#7 Dolorous Menhir

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 02:51 PM

Even so, they never affect any of the human mages who come nearby, and no reference is ever made to their powers deriving or being associated with Otataral.

#8

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 03:10 PM

I've put the theory forward before that otataral is aspected of all warrens, therefore it's possible that any baby dragons she may have take on a certain aspect.. like Sorrit/Serc, Silanah/Thyr, Eloth/Meanas etc..

#9 Abyss

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Posted 27 June 2006 - 03:37 PM

Starvald Demelain is Elder, but the younger warrens the dragons are ascpected to aren't. Interesting contrast, that.

I suppose it is possible that the Ottie dragon is a form Tiam took on, intending to do her die and rebirth thing but ended up crucified and unable to reiterate.

Pet theory (sit theory, sit!) is that the Ottie dragon is the 'terrible child' created to take down Scabby, but then the ascendants/gods/dragons/whoever created Ottie either couldn't or wouldn't kill it, so into the big evil globe of crucifixion she went.

I suppose just by virtue of being a dragon, it's likely Tiam played a role in Ottie's creation.... in fact, maybe that's why she hasn't been around... giving birth to an Otatral aspected dragon may have knocked out her ressurective tendencies.

- Abyss, could be onto something there...

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#10 Demon X

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 11:35 PM

Abyss said:

Ohhhh I like that idea.

But - and I'm probably reaching here - didnt the undead soltaken dragon (Olar Ethil??? not sure) say in MOI "In my soltaken form I am the twin of Tiam" or something to that effect? Could the Tellan ritual have messed about with some fundamental thingys, like Tiam's rebirth coupled with the ottataral dragon?l

#11 Illuyankas

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:46 AM

A common mistake. It actually say 'I am AS an undead twin to Tiam', eg she's pretty much the same size and possibly build as Tiam, not her twin sister.

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#12 Father Light

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 09:45 AM

Righto. Tiam is not the otatoral dragon we see crucified.

here is my evidence... in MT when Feathre Witch is describing the hold of the DRagonon pg 292 she states "The Queen lies dead and may never rise again. The consorth writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness the time of his release".

now the crucified dragon is not dead, while Tiam is expressly stated as being so. so this is point one.

point 2 is that the ref to hanging upon a tree is too clear a ref to crucifiction to be disregarded, hence it is my humble opinion that the crucified otatoral dragon is actually the consort in the dragon hold and not tiam.

#13 Morgoth

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:28 AM

Gah!! As I've stated on numerous occasions.. The OD is female. Tiam is female. If you were to make a guess, what would be the gender of the consort?

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#14 Father Light

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:00 PM

Just reread the relevant section of hoc. the consort is ref'd to as male. however.... tiam is dead with no immediate prospect of resurrection,pg 262 MT yet the ot dragon is alive.Pg415 HOC. hence not logical that it is tiam.

could merely be an inconsistency on se's part, as the ot dragon is only ref'd to as female once by pearl who could be mistaken. and i must be honest i forgot about his mention of the ot dragon as female!

so while its female it isn't likely to be the consort(tho possible if SE has simply made an error). but as its alive it's even less likely to be tiam who is dead.

#15 Morgoth

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:11 PM

Agreed, I do not think it is Tiam either.. I could not originaly remember any mentioning of the OD being alive, but as Hume pointed out it wa sin fact so -in this thread somewhere I think- I very much doubt the OD is Tiam.. I think the most popular theory these days is that the OD is the terrible child of the eleint

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#16 Abyss

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 02:45 PM

Exactly so. But i keep wondering at any link between Tiam's apprently permamanent death and the ottie dragon. In MT Sukul/Dapple made the point abundantly clear that Tiam died every time she gave birth, and at that time the 'terrible child' events had just happened, so the draconean Tiste may not have been aware of anything usual happening to Tiam.

Can we ID any draconean children of Tiam or incidents of drinking her blood after that flashback? None come to my mind. The Elder Gods, the three 'Daughters', Envy and Spite, Rake and his bros (and Korlat and co who drank just after Rake), Scabby and Ossi are all identifiably already in play by that point, and subsequent draconeans amount to Rud and no one else. (interesting aside - altho half Tiste, he's the first human draconean soletaken we've seen).

Olar Ethil is a bit of an unknown, but her 'first soletaken' status and the bits and pieces we do know suggests she was around way early.

- Abyss, needs a DragonNucleaicAcid cross-type and match, stat.

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#17 Gothos

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 12:29 PM

who's Rud?

anyways, I think we know that it was Kilmandros that killed Scabbie. so either she was that "terrible child" or the "terrible child" failed.

right then - the Consort. Silchas Ruin, still imprisoned in the Azath House.

Tiam - dead and not getting up this time.

theories can't contradict stated facts, keep this civil!

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